In a way I wish the middle east would just wipe each other out because it would solve so many problems.

Yes, those Iranians are simply unstoppable. Look how they've invaded Iraq, for instance.

It is not the nuclear armed country with hundreds or thousands of bombs that you need to worry about. The worry is the country with but a handful.

Would - you - like - to - play - a - game - ?

Not surprising it's Netanyahu. He still reeks of Rabin's blood.

gopher321: Would - you - like - to - play - a - game - ?

Nice play, Joshua.

Nice to see the filter works on headlines.

Is Netanyahu wrong? Would Iran blink at the thought of losing, say, their twenty biggest cities if they could get Tel Aviv and Jerusalem? He's probably right.

Israel would be better off letting Iran (and Saudi Arabia) know that their retaliation would be on Mecca and Medina, bomb after bomb, until every trace of those places was gone and the black stone was molecular dust in the stratosphere. That might deter them.

Satan_Sunburn: It is not the nuclear armed country with hundreds or thousands of bombs that you need to worry about. The worry is the country with but a handful.

So if Iran gets a handful of nuclear weapons, we should give them an extra hundred or thousand just to be on the safe side.

/let me answer myself with the eventual snark this post is going to get:

Yeah, we'll deliver them with bombers.. hi---oooo GLASS PARKING LOT! WOOOOOOO!

pandabear: Is Netanyahu wrong? Would Iran blink at the thought of losing, say, their twenty biggest cities if they could get Tel Aviv and Jerusalem? He's probably right.

Israel would be better off letting Iran (and Saudi Arabia) know that their retaliation would be on Mecca and Medina, bomb after bomb, until every trace of those places was gone and the black stone was molecular dust in the stratosphere. That might deter them.

I think that such a threat would only make matters a whole lot worse. It might even not deter them, as it would be the ultimate uniter of peoples against Israel, even in the West people would turn their backs on Israel if it nuked an innocent site, and especially a holy site.

pandabear

Would Iran blink at the thought of losing, say, their twenty biggest cities if they could get Tel Aviv and Jerusalem?


That's some great troll bait you've got there.

pandabear: Would Iran blink at the thought of losing, say, their twenty biggest cities if they could get Tel Aviv and Jerusalem? He's probably right.

What makes you say this? Besides what your concept of middle eastern people is from movies like True Lies and shows like 24.

Crimson jihad? WTH?

Marcus Aurelius: That's some great troll bait you've got there.

Damn, he got me.

Persepolis: pandabear: Would Iran blink at the thought of losing, say, their twenty biggest cities if they could get Tel Aviv and Jerusalem? He's probably right.

What makes you say this? Besides what your concept of middle eastern people is from movies like True Lies and shows like 24.

Crimson jihad? WTH?

Oh come on, True Lies was a documentary. All Arnie films are/were. You know it's true. Crommmmmmm

Persepolis: So if Iran gets a handful of nuclear weapons, we should give them an extra hundred or thousand just to be on the safe side.

Nah, we should just roll over them like we did Iraq. It should take the sum total of a couple weeks.

What an enormous crock of worthless bullshiat.

My favorite part was this: Maj.-Gen. Giora Eiland, meanwhile, accused the US of "not putting a stop to the Iranian threat because this is not one of its top priorities. If the US really wanted to stop Iran, it would not waste its time on... setting up missiles in Eastern Europe. This behavior makes Russia, too, avoid entering the Iranian issue, and the US is well aware of this reality."

Really? Seriously? You're whining that the US doesn't do enough to help Israel? Go fark yourself you ingrate.

Nestea Plunge: Well maybe in a Tom Clancy novel, but any scenario involving Israel and nukes will include Israel's destruction at some stage of the fighting.

Only if the Russians get involved.

Slaxl: even in the West people would turn their backs on Israel

In the scenario Netanyahu is describing, there won't be any Israel left to turn your back on. They'd have two choices. Use their bombs as a dying act or not. The question is whether MAD concept that kept the US and USSR from nuking each other for 40 years will work in the middle east.

So, if Iran nuked Israel, what should Israel do? Or what should they threaten to do to prevent that?

After Iraq we've proven that the only deterrent to an aggressive and unwarranted United States invasion IS nuclear weapons. I wouldn't blame Iran for trying to get them. Hell, Bin Laden ran to Pakistan and we just let him go. If he had gone the other way from Afghanistan, say, to Tajikstan, would we have followed? You're goddamn right.

Slaxl: Oh come on, True Lies was a documentary. All Arnie films are/were. You know it's true. Crommmmmmm

Youah Fiahed. boooom

Satan_Sunburn: Nah, we should just roll over them like we did Iraq. It should take the sum total of a couple weeks.

We would probably be greeted as liberators. Slam Dunk.

pandabear: So, if Iran nuked Israel, what should Israel do? Or what should they threaten to do to prevent that?

You're missing the big picture.. What if Iran breaks out their 101st airborne flying carpet brigade? What then?

Persepolis: We would probably be greeted as liberators. Slam Dunk.

Screw that. Nation building is for the UN.

Netanyahu finished his speech by stating that "unlike the common belief that peace will bring about financial improvement, history teaches us that the opposite is far truer."

Ah, so you're saying that poverty breeds violence, eh?



I wonder where you might find such poverty?



And what might cause it, hmm?

Nestea Plunge: As they most likely would, seeing how they have a ton of money and assets in Iran, and access to Iran's massive natural gas reserves.

They would try. They have a history of pre-positioning armor/supplies against Israel. The real question is could they be kept from actively engaging Israel.

Satan_Sunburn: They would try. They have a history of pre-positioning armor/supplies against Israel.

What Iran or Russia?

Satan_Sunburn: It is not the nuclear armed country with hundreds or thousands of bombs that you need to worry about. The worry is the country with but a handful.

pandabear: In the scenario Netanyahu is describing, there won't be any Israel left to turn your back on. They'd have two choices. Use their bombs as a dying act or not. The question is whether MAD concept that kept the US and USSR from nuking each other for 40 years will work in the middle east.

MAD will work with Iran for the same reason it worked with other countries in the past. Are you assuming that because of the existence of suicide bombers that Iran's leaders would be willing to sacrifice their country to get to Israel? Don't assume that.

Suicide bombers are pawns. The leaders that send them don't want to die. They're manipulative scumbags who ask young people to die for a cause. So while you may be able to find a handful of stupid young people willing to die to get a nuke into Jerusalem, the people in charge would never allow it. Not to mention the fact that nuking Israel would be kind of counter-intuitive given that the extremist groups aren't just genocidal wackos, but they also want the land. Not too useful if everyone who moves there turns into a flipper baby.

here's the thing though. iran really does actually need nuclear power.

they haven't opened a new oil field in well over 20 years. they know damn well that they're screwed if they depend on oil for their future energy needs.

they needed to start shifting their economy away from oil 10 years ago. they know this. they don't want to go back to living in mud huts when the oil runs out - and there is no question that it is running out.

but hey, nuclear power in the usa was just a way to manufacture fissile material for the department of defense, so, clearly that's the only reason anybody else would want it.

Marcus Aurelius: Yes, those Iranians are simply unstoppable. Look how they've invaded Iraq, for instance.

Their hands are COMPLETELY clean of ANY involvement in Iraq!!!

Tastes Like Chicken: Are you assuming that because of the existence of suicide bombers that Iran's leaders would be willing to sacrifice their country to get to Israel?

Iranian Suicide bombers? What? Where?

Asa Phelps: here's the thing though. iran really does actually need nuclear power.

While that may be true, it does not hold for enriched uranium (or plutonium). President Tom keeps bleating about his centrifuges, which have but one purpose.

Satan_Sunburn: President Tom keeps bleating about his centrifuges, which have but one purpose.

You don't understand much about nuclear power, do you?

Tastes Like Chicken: Don't assume that.

That's not my assumption. Netanyahu's statement is that he does not believe that MAD is possible in the case of Iran. This is the same country that used up a generation of their children in Iraq, even in the face of chemical weapons, so he may have a point.

but they also want the land.

I think not so much. They might want the shrines in Jerusalem. The rest I believe Iran doesn't care much about, nor do they care a great deal about the plight of the Palestinian Arabs, as long as they continue to be a source of cheap labor.

A lot of the political power in the region is tied to defending Islam, or appearing to do so to keep the plebes in line. Getting rid of Israel has been a stated aim of a number of regimes, including the current Irani government; it keeps the peoples' minds off the fact that they are living in the bronze age.

pandabear: This is the same country that used up a generation of their children in Iraq, even in the face of chemical weapons, so he may have a point.

The difference? Iraq was bombing civilian apartment buildings in downtown Iran to provoke this response.

Iran is the same country that use their children to clear mine fields . I do not doubt that they would be the first to launch

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Iran is the same country that use their children to clear mine fields . I do not doubt that they would be the first to launch

Again.. you are all talking about Iran nuking Israel out of the blue. The Iran/Iraq war IRAQ started.. and they were bombing civilians apartment buildings in downtown Iran. I've personally known families that died because of Iraqi MIGs.

This is not one in the same.

Tastes Like Chicken: You're whining that the US doesn't do enough to help Israel? Go fark yourself you ingrate.

I've always wondered what the Chosen People need with American help in the first place?
Don't they have the all-powerful creator and sustainer of the entire universe in their corner?

Unless that's all a crock of shiat. It would be nice if they came clean about it.

Tastes Like Chicken: They're manipulative scumbags who ask young people to die for a cause. So while you may be able to find a handful of stupid young people willing to die to get a nuke into Jerusalem, the people in charge would never allow it.

This would be Jerusalem, Islam's third holiest city? From where Muhammad ascended to heaven?
I somehow don't think that it is a priority target, no matter how important it is to the Jews.

Persepolis: Again.. you are all talking about Iran nuking Israel out of the blue. The Iran/Iraq war IRAQ started.. and they were bombing civilians apartment buildings in downtown Iran. I've personally known families that died because of Iraqi MIGs.

This is not one in the same.

Sorry I was stating a point against the idea of "oh they would never do that it would kill their own people". My example (one of many) was to show that the government in Iran has no problem using the most innocent among them to clear a field. If you think that losing some civilians is going to keep them up at night you are mistaken.

Shaggy_C
Nestea Plunge

HEU is not the key ingredient for nuclear power. Can you guess what it is the key ingredient to? Remember to make a diagram for bonus points.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: If you think that losing some civilians is going to keep them up at night you are mistaken.

And if you think Iran would give up civilian life unprevoked, then you have no sources to back that up.

The Iran/Iraq war was an ugly ugly thing, and I don't like dwelling on it, especially when I'm at work and need to be in a good mood. One of the main reasons my family fled Iran was because they were afraid my brother (9 at the time) would sign up to fight.

I don't think you can imagine living in that situation.. There were horrible atrocities, and at that time, in that enviroment, the only way to stop the Iraqi war machine from completly annihilating Iran was ugly.

Persepolis: The difference? Iraq was bombing civilian apartment buildings in downtown Iran to provoke this response.

I didn't say they started the war, Saddam did. Iran certainly did keep fighting once they had regained what they had lost. Like the Marne and the Somme, except for eight years.

pandabear: I didn't say they started the war, Saddam did.

Fair enough. I was just clarifying, because people seem to mistakingly use the Iran/Iraq war as a citation in why they think Iran is going to nuke Israel for sure, just out of the blue.

Satan_Sunburn: HEU is not the key ingredient for nuclear power. Can you guess what it is the key ingredient to? Remember to make a diagram for bonus points.

Do you understand the difference between 'enriched' and 'highly enriched'? Or does the concept that both require centrifuges escape you?

Persepolis: And if you think Iran would give up civilian life unprevoked, then you have no sources to back that up.

The Iran/Iraq war was an ugly ugly thing, and I don't like dwelling on it, especially when I'm at work and need to be in a good mood. One of the main reasons my family fled Iran was because they were afraid my brother (9 at the time) would sign up to fight.

I don't think you can imagine living in that situation.. There were horrible atrocities, and at that time, in that enviroment, the only way to stop the Iraqi war machine from completly annihilating Iran was ugly.

Well I am glad that you got out of that situation. Again I am not talking about the average person in Iran. The government has no problem spending their civilians and I promise you that anyone who is anyone in the government has a bomb shelter to go to. So I agree with the author, MAD will not work with Iran.

Nestea Plunge: But besides being a non sequitor, the veracity of that claim is debateble.

Do you know what non sequitur means? We are debating if MAD would be effective on Iran and I give you an example of them using their own children to clear a field so that their equipment is not harmed. How does the fear of civilian deaths scare someone who are willing to spend the lives of children to protect tanks?!?! I believe that is right on point.

Now if I started posting IDF girl pics, that would be a non sequitur.

Persepolis: Iran is going to nuke Israel for sure, just out of the blue.

This is certainly something Israel has to consider and plan for. Netanyahu believes it is possible, certainly.

My initial point was that if this happens, Israel is gone. All they could do in response is to lash out one last time. How and if they choose to do that is really their only defense against it.

Shaggy_C: the difference between 'enriched' and 'highly enriched'

The latter can only be accomplished if the IAEA isn't monitoring your centrifuges, or you have centrifuges they don't know about?

Tastes Like Chicken: MAD will work with Iran for the same reason it worked with other countries in the past. Are you assuming that because of the existence of suicide bombers that Iran's leaders would be willing to sacrifice their country to get to Israel? Don't assume that.

That's what the talking point on the floor-humper sites is, yeah. They're not like us, they're crazy people, they don't value life[1] like we do.

As for what happens if someone nukes Israel, Israel will nuke back, of course. Then other countrieS will step in. I think it's unlikely that either Russia OR the US would just stay out of it.

[1] Or political power, supposedly. I'm with you, I think MAD will work there for the same reasons as it works elsewhere.

Persepolis: Iranian Suicide bombers? What? Where?

Man, they're Persons of Swarth who write with little squiggles. We can't be wasting time on tiny details!!1!!1!

The Stealth Hippopotamus: So I agree with the author, MAD will not work with Iran.

I think that's a flawed argument though. The concept of MAD is that no one is being attacked to begin with... it's a standoff. You can't cite the Iran/Iraq war (when Iran was attacked... horribly at that) as a reason why you think MAD won't work.

pandabear: This is certainly something Israel has to consider and plan for. Netanyahu believes it is possible, certainly.

Totally. And for them to ignore the possibility and not plan for it would be foolish.

However, for them to pre-emptively strike, which would have horrible consequences, and ensure more hostilities for even further down the road, all based on gut feelings and fears; that's even more foolish.

pandabear: My initial point was that if this happens, Israel is gone

I guess the closest thing I have to a point is that that if is a big IF. Too big to act brashly and make matters worse.

Is this todays popcorn thread? I like nuked popcorn.