New Zealand is "Western" now?

Still an awesome thing for Humanity First to do, but I think subby may have pulled something reaching for that headline.

Jubeebee: New Zealand is "Western" now?


Those sheep didn't come from New Delhi now did they?

That's awesome.

'Western' is a retarded term created by some Northerner

Donating Afghans?

It's a ploy to lull us into a sense of security while they quietly move to force our wives to wear burqas and live in harems and poison the men's drinking water. Learn from history my friends. They tried this in Europe before, when we fought our First Great Crusade against the Muslim Menace. We let them off the hook then, and it is time that we raise up against them once and for all. Do not be fooled. A true Patriot is always vigilant against the evils that these dark-skinned tyrants would throw down upon us. Useful idiots aside, this is SERIOUS.

People who actually understand their holy books FTW!

/sadly a ton of Christians don't understand their's

Totally makes up for the bombs, beheadings and that whole Jihad against the infidels thing. Thanks.

Jubeebee: New Zealand is "Western" now?

"Western" meaning "first-world country other than Japan or South Korea"

Nastyboy: Totally makes up for the bombs, beheadings and that whole Jihad against the infidels thing. Thanks.

Quite.

WhyteRaven74: People who actually understand their holy books FTW!

/sadly a ton of Christians don't understand their's

This and uh... THIS.

Nastyboy: Totally makes up for the bombs, beheadings and that whole Jihad against the infidels thing. Thanks.

I dunno Christians had fun forcing conversions for over a millenium and a half, to say nothing of other pleasantries. And there are a few Christians who are doing a bang up job of keeping a good number of people dirt poor, ignorant and afraid of the world. Mind your own backyard before you go after your neighbor.

NZ is "western" if you're in Hawaii, I guess.

Poor people in New Zealand? What happened to all that hobbit money?

WhyteRaven74: People who actually understand their holy books FTW!

/sadly a ton of Christians don't understand their's

Sadly a lot of farkers don't understand proper apostrophe usage.


/hotlinked because i'm lazy

"Now take the Chinese SARS patients, and rub them on the blankets...."

WhyteRaven74: I dunno Christians had fun forcing conversions for over a millenium and a half, to say nothing of other pleasantries

I'd like to see the estimated numbers on forced conversions. Seriously.

Zakat (new window): It's not just for breakfast anymore.

Americans kindly donated blankets to the Native Americans too...

was the pox small?

LibertyFirst: WhyteRaven74: I dunno Christians had fun forcing conversions for over a millenium and a half, to say nothing of other pleasantries

I'd like to see the estimated numbers on forced conversions. Seriously.

The Moors and Jews of Andalus, most of the native peoples in what's now Latin America, and the Aborigines of Australia would like a word with you.

There's a big difference between missionaries and forced conversions. Even the Wikipedia article was sparse and needed citations for nearly everything.

Actually NZ is a little bit south and east. They are not West, unless you mean "far" west

From Wikipedia (new window):

[Ahmadiyya Muslims] Claim that as per prophecy, the messiah rendered the concept of violent Jihad unnecessary in modern times. They believe that the answer of hate should be given by love. As their khalifas said that 'if anyone attacks us we must not attack him and should love him' this is called "Jihaad-e-Akbar" (The Greater Jihad).

Good for them. That is a true religion of peace. However,

Orthodox Muslims consider both Ahmadi sects to be heretics and non-Muslims for a number of reasons

So don't expect these folks' theology to be particularly useful against an insurgency.

LibertyFirst: There's a big difference between missionaries and forced conversions.

By the time 'forcing' came in most situations it was easier to simply kill the heathen in question.

Blahbbs: Donating Afghans?

i lol'd

TheCid: WhyteRaven74: People who actually understand their holy books FTW!

/sadly a ton of Christians don't understand their's

Sadly a lot of farkers don't understand proper apostrophe usage.


/hotlinked because i'm lazy

I like the updated version.

I would be really interested to see a numbers comparison between the charity that Christian churches contribute to poor and war/natural disaster victims worldwide vs. the number that Muslims contribute.

LibertyFirst: There's a big difference between missionaries and forced conversions. Even the Wikipedia article was sparse and needed citations for nearly everything.

What, like the "missionaries" in Australia that took kids away from their parents to pack them off to Christian boarding schools?

Or the deliberate destruction of Mesoamerican sacred texts by Spanish priests? All the while building their new churches and cathedrals right smack on top of the same space?

Or the Reconquista?

C'mon now. No question Islam was spread by the sword in a lot of places, but to think any world religion is clean of that sort of history is foolish.

eastbaywatch: I would be really interested to see a numbers comparison between the charity that Christian churches contribute to poor and war/natural disaster victims worldwide vs. the number that Muslims contribute.

Meh, gotta correct for income, population, etc. I mean 4 million Iraqis are refugees, they ain't donatin' shiat. I'm unaware of any American refugees, so I dunno how you make those corrections.

eastbaywatch: I would be really interested to see a numbers comparison between the charity that Christian churches contribute to poor and war/natural disaster victims worldwide vs. the number that Muslims contribute.

I'd be interested, too. You'd have to scale it for relative community wealth, I guess.

I think the giving pattern would be more widely distributed in Islamic communities; I was under the impression that there's less of a "tithe to your local mosque/church" thing, and more of an individual approach. Less overhead probably.

That's probably offset by the fact that if you're dirt-poor, zakat can be waived, because you're a recipient.

/And where do mega-churches and slick TV preachers fit in? does that count as charity to buy Rev. Creflo Dollar a new Lear Jet?

Bonzo_1116: C'mon now. No question Islam was spread by the sword in a lot of places, but to think any world religion is clean of that sort of history is foolish.

I never said they were clean. In fact, they are in clear violation of their own scripture and violating the expressed wishes of their leaders.

I was just wondering if anyone had some hard numbers.

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: Meh, gotta correct for income, population, etc.

In much of the Arab Muslim world, they drive around in Mercedes, invest heavily in other countries and live in luxury due to oil wealth, so your argument sucks.

LibertyFirst: I never said they were clean. In fact, they are in clear violation of their own scripture and violating the expressed wishes of their leaders.

I was just wondering if anyone had some hard numbers.

Records should have been kept of baptisms, however I doubt the degree of coercion was also recorded, so I'm not sure if you could get such numbers. The official persecution of native religions in Latin America and elsewhere is well documented. Some enterprising Jesuits even showed up to baptize African slaves disembarking in the Americas, whom they enticed with an offer of cold water.

Bonzo_1116: And where do mega-churches and slick TV preachers fit in?

Most left-wingers who hate the church and religious folks are surprised when they find out how much Christianity sends out to those in need per year (billions).

Bonzo_1116: LibertyFirst: There's a big difference between missionaries and forced conversions. Even the Wikipedia article was sparse and needed citations for nearly everything.

What, like the "missionaries" in Australia that took kids away from their parents to pack them off to Christian boarding schools?

Or the deliberate destruction of Mesoamerican sacred texts by Spanish priests? All the while building their new churches and cathedrals right smack on top of the same space?

Or the Reconquista?

C'mon now. No question Islam was spread by the sword in a lot of places, but to think any world religion is clean of that sort of history is foolish.

During the Caliphate expansions, they would besiege a city, and then offer surrender and no forced culture imposed. Most just assimilated into the arab culture. Moorish Spain was arguably the most enlightened place in the world at the time.

/not saying there's a comparison to modern Islamic theocracies

LibertyFirst: Bonzo_1116: C'mon now. No question Islam was spread by the sword in a lot of places, but to think any world religion is clean of that sort of history is foolish.

I never said they were clean. In fact, they are in clear violation of their own scripture and violating the expressed wishes of their leaders.

I was just wondering if anyone had some hard numbers.

You could probably get some okay ones for Spain, and for what happened in the 1800's and later in Australia(I'm sure the boarding schools kept excellent records).

For the New World estimates are going to range wildly. The Spanish kept fairly good records for the time, but original population sizes are a moveing target, if only because of mass epidemics taking away large chunks of the locals. Add to that the fact that written records of the time were made by the Spanish themselves reporting back to superiors in Europe, so statements like "the Mixtecs gladly accepted the sacrament of Baptism" could be utter bullshiat, and in many cases probably were.

You'll likely have better luck if you can read Spanish. It's a topic of much livelier discussion in Spanish-language academia.

LibertyFirst: I'd like to see the estimated numbers on forced conversions. Seriously.

Well there were the 20,000 plus people of Languedoc, oh wait, no, they were all slaughtered. In one day.

It's not how many, but rather that it was standing accepted policy to threaten peple that way that matters.

eastbaywatch: Bonzo_1116: And where do mega-churches and slick TV preachers fit in?

Most left-wingers who hate the church and religious folks are surprised when they find out how much Christianity sends out to those in need per year (billions).

Oh, I know they do. Most of it's good work, and lots don't even wave around the religion part around to the folks receiving the aid. shiat, the Heifer Project is my favorite charity, and I'm a complete heathen.

Yeah, the West has never gone through a period where knowledge and intellectual discourse were shunned in favor of blind adherence to an authority which claimed religious right to rule, leading to a period of great infighting and all around violence.

Oh wait, yeah we did!

The Middle East is going through a sort of modern Dark Age, IMO. Just as the muslims held the candle of knowledge and science and kept it alight during our dark age, we need to do it for them until they can figure stuff out. Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to hasten a Middle Eastern renaissance and, frankly, western intervention will probably only hurt.

eastbaywatch: Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: Meh, gotta correct for income, population, etc.

In much of the Arab Muslim world, they drive around in Mercedes, invest heavily in other countries and live in luxury due to oil wealth, so your argument sucks.

Really? Well show me your numbers. Oh wait, you don't have any, because you just make shiat up. On account of you're an idiot. Also sounds like you're racist too. Typical mouth-breater.

Bonzo_1116: LibertyFirst: There's a big difference between missionaries and forced conversions. Even the Wikipedia article was sparse and needed citations for nearly everything.

What, like the "missionaries" in Australia that took kids away from their parents to pack them off to Christian boarding schools?

Or the deliberate destruction of Mesoamerican sacred texts by Spanish priests? All the while building their new churches and cathedrals right smack on top of the same space?

Or the Reconquista?

C'mon now. No question Islam was spread by the sword in a lot of places, but to think any world religion is clean of that sort of history is foolish.

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that most people who learn about aboriginal subincision ceremonies would want to pull those kids out of their "cultural" situations. Anyone who's culture has them split their wang down the middle like a hotdog and roll around in the sacred dirt to become a man, is farking crazy and backwards. So there..

/Back to bashing T.R.o.P.
//Wake me when they stop stoning people to death for smoking weed, drinking, gambling, sex out of marriage, porn, etc.
///Seriously not trying to be a troll.

TMBGfreak: Bonzo_1116: LibertyFirst: There's a big difference between missionaries and forced conversions. Even the Wikipedia article was sparse and needed citations for nearly everything.

What, like the "missionaries" in Australia that took kids away from their parents to pack them off to Christian boarding schools?

Or the deliberate destruction of Mesoamerican sacred texts by Spanish priests? All the while building their new churches and cathedrals right smack on top of the same space?

Or the Reconquista?

C'mon now. No question Islam was spread by the sword in a lot of places, but to think any world religion is clean of that sort of history is foolish.

During the Caliphate expansions, they would besiege a city, and then offer surrender and no forced culture imposed. Most just assimilated into the arab culture. Moorish Spain was arguably the most enlightened place in the world at the time.

/not saying there's a comparison to modern Islamic theocracies

A hundred million dead Hindus would like to have a word with you...but they can't because they're dead. It is sometimes referred to as the 'Hindu Holocaust'. Nine hundred years of slaughter...

Ahmadiyya Muslims are considered heretics by other Muslims.

homerdrew415:
I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that most people who learn about aboriginal subincision ceremonies would want to pull those kids out of their "cultural" situations. Anyone who's culture has them split their wang down the middle like a hotdog and roll around in the sacred dirt to become a man, is farking crazy and backwards. So there..
/Back to bashing T.R.o.P.
//Wake me when they stop stoning people to death for smoking weed, drinking, gambling, sex out of marriage, porn, etc.
///Seriously not trying to be a troll.

Nubbled for her pleasure, dude. I recall there's some tribe in New Guinea that really splits it to the root, not just a scarification.

/Also, I think the Baptists would gladly stone people for having fun if they thought they could get away with it.

85% illiteracy? Check
Mass unemployment? Check
Only book you know the Quran and only because someone reads it to you? Check
Defending to the death the profit who was a pedophile who married an 8 year old? Check

Ah the Religion of Peace..how I love making fun of you so..let me count the ways...

/Just checking...

CigaretteSmokingMan

I fail to see what is inaccurate in that picture.

homerdrew415: 85% illiteracy? Check
Mass unemployment? Check
Only book you know the Quran and only because someone reads it to you? Check
Defending to the death the profit who was a pedophile who married an 8 year old? Check

Ah the Religion of Peace..how I love making fun of you so..let me count the ways...

/Just checking...

Lol profit? That is awsome! Just remember Hitler was a Christian, the Crusades were Christian, Inquisition? Christian. The Holocaust was done by Christians. I don't think you want to start keeping score. Hell, Christians are begging for Armageddon.(Which will be the greatest war of all time) It would signal the second coming. So who is the more peaceful?

I rarely throw down Bevets-style, because I like making my own points, but this is one of those times when I'd just like to quote an oldie but a goodie. We've all heard it, but hey, if this is gonna be a real flamewar I might as well start with the obvious.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
-Steven Weinberg