She misspoke. They're just words, you know.

/not subby

Senator Obama, POUNCE ON THIS.

C'mon now.. words only mean what you think they mean and not actually what she says. Its your fault for not fully understanding whats she says by using the words that she says. You people should know this by now.

"It's undemocratic to make the votes of Michigan and Florida not count!"

"I'm going to make the votes of North Dakota not count!"

The mind boggles.

Someone in the media should just come out and ask her why do we even bother voting then if the delegates should just go to her.

She has cankles and a fat ass!

Clinton's Press Release: "Close to 600,000 Michiganians cast ballots in January and these votes cannot be ignored,"

Its Michiganders you f*cking idiot.

As the other headline said, add this bullshiat to her current stance of "if the Michigan/Florida numbers put me in the lead in the popular vote, I won the popular vote," and you can argue that Hillary's gone completely nuts in her desperation.

whoops. wrong thread.

baorao: whoops. wrong thread.

Eh, thread's about the latest way Hillary's an idiot, it counts.

I want to see a Hillary melt-down a la Janice Lester.

The future of the Democratic party AKA How McCain won in 2008 v1.1

Mark my words, she has a plan: Judging from what we have seen of baby-boomers and the rust-belt, there is an extremely good chance she can carry the popular vote without even counting Florida. With over six-weeks of Obama campaiging, it comes down to Pennsylvania and just how stupid the average voter is in the "rust belt". If she carries Pennsylvania by double digits, I'd go ahead and prepare for the worst as far as Indiana, South Carolina and Kentucky. And at that point, I think she has a good chance ofcarrying the popular vote... even without Florida.

At which point: Whether or not she pulls close enough to carry the popular vote, if Florida and Michigan put her over the top, her argument is going to shift that they should of counted and the election was stolen. She is going to remind Democrats of how duped we felt when Gore won the popular vote and lost to Bush.

At which point: The Democrats are going to be in a huge farking mess. The DNC made a huge mistake saying they would seat Florida and Michigan, because neither (Obama or Hillary) has a snowballs chance in hell at coming to an agreement. But in saying they are going to seat them, they opened the door for Hillary to use that argument. The DNC is going to regret not nailing her at the cross the moment she changed her tune about Florida and Michigan. The first day she opened her mouth, Dean should of come out and asked why she kept her mouth closed the first 9 months before the election and now, after she wins, she turns into a Martyr? There is no way to reconcile how unacceptable her behavior was, but a lot of baby boomer voters have no idea about it, because the DNC has been trying to sweep it under the rug so they don't "disenfranchise the voters". They specifically asked Obama to let this issue die and he did. So again, I remind you, there are a TON of baby boomers who have *no/to very little* knowledge about this issue because of the DNC's behavior.

At which point: Now Obama is going to be forced into bringing some of this old stuff up about how evil it was that she pretended to neutral about Florida and Michigan, ran a covert-campaign in both areas, remained on the ballot in Michigan and then, after winning both, comes out of the closet and demands for them to be seated. But this undeniable logic will come too little too late. The DNC stood by idle and let her subvert the very rules she agreed to participate under as a DNC candidate. She knew damn well if she came out and started saying Florida and Michigan should count before the election, it was going to be a huge campaign issue in the early states...

At which point: Absolutely no agreement is going to ever be reached between the Obama and Clinton campaign. And before it is over, we will all come to realize the National DNC shot themselves in the head by being willing to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates. The DNC is going to have to override both candidates and seat the delegates 1:1 equally and refuse to acknowledge the popular vote in the totals. All the while, Clinton is going to be screaming about how unfair this is and champion for them to count.

In the end: Obama will win the election. But the party is going to be shattered. This biatch is not going to go quietly into the night. It wouldn't surprise me if she split the Democratic party, screaming about Florida and Michigan and ran as an independent. A lot of her supporters are already aligning themselves with Republicans who are waiting with open arms. Hell she publicly endorsed McCain over Obama. Start to expect the worst.

Neurochemist: The future of the Democratic party AKA How McCain won in 2008 v1.1

Long post with points and everything ...

I don't know how accurate your specific predictions are, but I am already trying to resign myself to a McCain presidency.

The only thing I see left to hope for is that the Dems learn something from all of this. However, they don't seem to have learned much from '68, so it's a faint hope.

baorao: whoops. wrong thread.

...just like a Michiganian...

It depends on what your definition of "pledged" is.

mrCasual: It depends on what your definition of "pledged" is.

Strange. It's almost as if you can't take Hillary at her word...

/in a coma since 1992, just woke up

nashBridges: I can't believe Dean isn't taking more heat for this.

I dunno...MI and FL said "let's do this" and the DNC said "don't do that or we won't seat your delgates" and the candidates said "yeah, we're with the DNC on this - don't do it", then MI and FL said..."eh, we're doing it anyway," then the DNC and the candidates said, "then we won't campaign in, participate in or accept whatever your states do, and, in the end, you won't get seated." MI and FL said FU, and did it anyway.

The "controversy" arose when HRC, finding herself in a close race she did not expect, decided - despite what she promised earlier - that seating MI and FL would be to her advantage, so she went against promises she made earlier and became the "champion" of the voters in those states (or tried to)...

That's my two-bit round-up....am I missing something?

PS...to make that rambling post more farky, feel free to sprinkle "she was all like" and "they were totally" and stuff like that where needed.

nashBridges: . I can't imagine the RNC letting something like that happen in the first place.

Actually, the RNC counted only 1/2 of Florida delegates as a penalty (because of their party rules). It just happened to turn out irrelevant and the media ignored it because the race was never close.

nashBridges: Actually, I think their initial mistake was not managing to seat them in the first place. Granted, Florida and Michigan weren't playing nice, but someone should have realized the long term consequences of leaving two states out of the primaries altogether.

As a Floridian, who didn't vote because I was told it wouldn't count, Florida knew the consequences before they ever changed the laws. Florida thought they could bully the national DNC into seating their delegates (Both Democrats and Republicans in this state), sued them and legally lost. The DNC should of never caved on this issue and as far as I'm concerned, Florida primary should not count now or in the future, until Florida moves the date back.

And as for the "long term consequences"... Florida was going Republican, regardless of what happened. Michigan was going Democrat, regardless of what happened. The "long term consequences" would of been the people of these states getting pissed off with the state legislature who decided to cancel out their vote. The "long term consequences" should of been people realizing their elected officials screwed them over and that the ultimate responsibility is on themselves, for electing an incompetent group of state government and standing idly while all this was going on.. The "long term consequences" would of been the state moving the date back or facing the wrath of the voting public.

Lionel Mandrake: The "controversy" arose when HRC, finding herself in a close race she did not expect, decided - despite what she promised earlier - that seating MI and FL would be to her advantage, so she went against promises she made earlier and became the "champion" of the voters in those states (or tried to)...

That's my two-bit round-up....am I missing something?

No you are right. Hillary deliberately kept her head down and said nothing about Florida and Michigan because she didn't want to alienate the earlier states. She knew if she came about before hand, she was going to lose a lot of voters who believe the DNC should be able to determine when the state primaries are held (very important issue to Iowa and New Hampshire) .

One way or the other, she knew these rules existed when she signed on to run as a national DNC candidate, she knew about these Florida and Michigan issues, she said nothing and agreed to play by the DNC's rules as a DNC candidate.

SHE WAS UNDER SNIPER FIRE IN NORTH DAKOTA WHEN SHE SAID IT, ALL RIGHT?

Goddamn woman's a war hero, just ask her. I can't understand why you people can't lay off already.

Neurochemist

If man/woman -on-the-street Floridians are pissed about not having delegates seated (and I can't really blame them if they are), the proper target of their anger is...what? The Florida Legislature that voted to move up the primary date, correct? After being told by the DNC (and the RNC) that to do so would have dire consequences.

I'm restricting this question to FL because you (Neurochemist) are from FL and seem to be pretty hip to the details. Any Michiganders in the thread? I'd be interested in your take as well.

I've heard lots of different explanations, excuses, whining - but the conclusion seems unavoidable: Floridians and Michiganders were screwed by LOCAL dipshiats, not DNC or RNC dickheads.

They gambled, and lost.

Lionel Mandrake: They gambled, and lost.

At this point we can't even say that... Dean says the DNC are going to seat them as long as "an agreement can be reached between the Obama and Clinton campaign" (pops) As if that can possibly happen? If it changes the outcome of any of the voting indicators (popular, delegates) neither side is going to come to an agreement. So then where does that leave them? Both sides are going to be unwilling to compromise and there will be blood.

The DNC should of never caved and in doing-so, opened a pandora's box for Clinton to climb into and throw feces out of at everyone else.

angrymacface: I want to see a Hillary melt-down a la Janice Lester.

I'd rather see Hillary melt-down a la Bud Dwyer.

And pay very close attention to what a lot of these super-delegates are coming out and saying.... "I cannot overturn the popular vote" seems the be the thing I hear mentioned the most.

So what happens when the popular vote depends on counting a *possibly* disqualified Florida and Michigan? Neither party will come to an agreement and the super delegates get to choose how they want to interpret it. They simply aren't going to over-turn Obama (because it represents the biggest backlash) and she simply isn't going to stand down..

/The DNC needs to explicitly re-write their by-laws, and add that if a candidate comes out publicly against the DNC rules they agreed to play by, they can possibly lose their DNC backing and be forced to step out of the race.

Neurochemist: The DNC should of never caved and in doing-so, opened a pandora's box for Clinton to climb into and throw feces out of at everyone else.

Yeah, that sucks. The end is clear: Obama get's the nod.

I can't help but think HRC and Co. are drawing this out as long as possible, not because the math can ever go there way, but maybe, just maybe, Barack Obama's funding of SE Asian child-prostitution rings or his black market plutonium cartel will come to light.

Just delaying the inevitable in the hopes that BO - consummate politician, gentleman and stand up guy, will somehow fk up royally, and the Super delegates (and pledged delegates) will swarm en masse to HRC.

Unless she gets 135% of the vote in PA, it will be clear that HRC is just hanging in hoping that something very fkn shady will emerge about Barack. She may even increasingly feel the urge to create a controversy...OK, maybe I'm being paranoid...

ksdanj: I'd rather see Hillary melt-down a la Bud Dwyer.

Ouch! Any surprise news conferences in her office with a bulging manila envelope on her desk should immediately be put on tape delay!

Lionel Mandrake:
...the proper target of their anger is...what? The Florida Legislature...

Yep and Yep (pops)

Chamber.....Date........................Yeas.....Nays.....Actions
House.........3/21/2007 13:24.....115......1............Passage
Senate........4/27/2007 11:49.....372
House.........5/03/2007 11:31.....118......0............Passage

source (pops)

/doesn't live in FL

angrymacface: I want to see a Hillary melt-down a la Janice Lester.

Oo, nice. "I'm president! I'M PRESIDENT! ME!"

With the caveat that the plural of anecdote is not data, everyone I know from FL and MI is already extremely pissed in advance if Hillary gets the states counted, seeing as she didn't manage a majority of the popular vote there even as the only name on the ballot. Not having actual data going on, I'm gonna have to say that if she gets 'em counted, those states are probably going red. Inspiring red-hot rage in people is not a good way to get them to elect you.

I wonder if CNN will ignore or gloss over this and ask again if Rev Wright hurt Obama while playing a clip of Wright over and over again.....


...tough call....

I'm glad I live in Texas. I already did my part by voting in the primary. I can't stand McCain but he's going to carry Texas. There's not really any point in showing up, especially if the Hildabeast gets the nomination.

Now I get to just sit back and enjoy the fireworks.

ksdanj: angrymacface: I want to see a Hillary melt-down a la Janice Lester.

I'd rather see Hillary melt-down a la Bud Dwyer.

I'd rather see her melt down like those soldiers in "Indiana Jones and the Lost Ark", especially that one guy with the glasses who is all screaming, and then his face catches on fire and melts.

It's farking politics. She should steal every delegate she can, then call up sambo and let 'em know she did it.

onecrazylay: Yep and Yep (pops)

Chamber.....Date........................Yeas.....Nays.....Actions
House.........3/21/2007 13:24.....115......1............Passage
Senate........4/27/2007 11:49.....372
House.........5/03/2007 11:31.....118......0............Passage

source (pops)

/doesn't live in FL

Yeah...any Floridian pissed off about this should direct their anger at voting out that arrogant fat-fark smarmy POS dickweed and all his colleagues, not direct anger/revenge at the DNC or the eventual Dem nom. Vote for Obama in Nov. and against that smartass and his jolly colleagues...no doubt. Thanks for the links.

log_jammin: I wonder if CNN will ignore or gloss over this and ask again if Rev Wright hurt Obama while playing a clip of Wright over and over again.....

No you don't "wonder," you know, you cheeky monkey!


I have a dream...that one day little Democrats and little Republicans will direct their (legit) anger towards these dickwads instead of the National figures who...ah, you get the point...I HAVE A DREAM!!

JerkyMeat: call up sambo

The last time I read that word was when a guy I knew wanted me to read the turner diaries to "open my mind up".

I'm assuming you already own a copy.

ok
I gotta make a list, cause I'm losing track of the mountain of bullshiat coming from this meltdown of global proportions.

Hillary on Obama: "I started criticizing the war in Iraq before he did."

Neurochemist: Obama will win the election. But the party is going to be shattered.

How is this a bad thing? If Obama doesn't even truly represent the Dems, isn't it time for a new party?

The future of the Democratic party AKA How McCain won in 2008 v1.1

But you said Obama won. How does McCain win? Is he secretly Obama in disguise?

Lionel Mandrake: No you don't "wonder," you know, you cheeky monkey!

I am NOT a cheeky monkey!

Neurochemist: The future of the Democratic party AKA How McCain won in 2008 v1.1

The scary thing is that's one of the better scenarios at this point.

whidbey: How is this a bad thing? If Obama doesn't even truly represent the Dems, isn't it time for a new party?

But you said Obama won. How does McCain win? Is he secretly Obama in disguise?

In the scenario I presented, Obama wins the Democratic primary but loses the national election because Clinton shatters the party.

TheAfterbirthTycoon: The scary thing is that's one of the better scenarios at this point.

I don't think so. It sounds like naysaying. Obama's garnered a lot of support. I don't see so much with Clinton. She's lost many more than she's won.

And Republicans hate McCain, they'll either not vote at all or vote for him as a "necessary evil."

Obama's got this one sewn up unless the Democratic Convention screws it up and hands the nomination to Hillary on some farked up principle.

But both parties need to implode and be done with. They're both pathetic. The only attraction is the federal funding.

Neurochemist: Obama wins the Democratic primary but loses the national election because Clinton shatters the party.

You seem to think she's going to take a lot of votes away as an Independent. Given her track record, stepping outside the Democratic Party would be a suicidic fizzle.

Party Boy: Hillary on Obama: "I started criticizing the war in Iraq before he did."

She was against the war before she was for it?

"None of this would have happened if Barack Obama hadn't meddled the way he did. He should have just accepted things as they are instead of trying to interfere with destiny. You see, you can't interfere with destiny. That's why it's destiny. And if you try to interfere, the same thing's going to happen anyway, and you'll just suffer. "

whidbey: I don't think so. It sounds like naysaying. Obama's garnered a lot of support. I don't see so much with Clinton. She's lost many more than she's won.

That entirely depends on what your definition of "support" is. While she may remain extremely unpopular on fark, she is still pulling in almost 50% of the Democratic votes and has a decent chance at pulling the majority of the popular vote, which will become her #1 argument when she starts to ripping apart the party. She will use Florida/Michigan "not counting" to splinter the party even further.

whidbey: You seem to think she's going to take a lot of votes away as an Independent. Given her track record, stepping outside the Democratic Party would be a suicidic fizzle.

All right.. Simplest way I can explain this to you, is to implore you to consider what we are seeing in the primary. In light of all the snaky, underhanded, lying, cheating and stealing that she has committed, a significant number of people are still voting for her in this primary. If those primary voters can't figure out that shes a lying fraud, what makes you think they are capable of rationalizing that they need to vote for Obama in order to keep a republican out of the white house. If she runs as an independent, Obama has a guaranteed lost coming.

Neurochemist: While she may remain extremely unpopular on fark, she is still pulling in almost 50% of the Democratic votes and has a decent chance at pulling the majority of the popular vote, which will become her #1 argument when she starts to ripping apart the party. She will use Florida/Michigan "not counting" to splinter the party even further.

I'm going by her actual track record. The race is close, granted, but Obama has the advantage. It just really sucks about the Florida and Michigan primary results, it gives her a sense of false hope.

And the chances of her pulling up stakes and wasting a bunch more money in what amounts to a Hail Mary pass would carry some damn high odds.

I don't think she'd do it, and I don't think her husband would support it, either. She will crack under the pressure of losing a very strained and stressful effort at the Convention.

TheXRayStyle: And if you try to interfere, the same thing's going to happen anyway, and you'll just suffer. "

LOL