"Congress passed the REAL ID law in 2005. It addresses concerns raised by the 9/11 commission about the ability of terrorists to obtain identification, says DHS spokeswoman Amy Kudwa."


Meanwhile, to improve US national security our government outsourced the manufacture of our passport documents to a foreign country. Including a Thai company which has ties with Chinese espionage.

WTF?

We're with you Montana!! Stay vigilant!

a number of states are revolting

Yeah, they stink on ice

!

Montana decides to send a letter to DHS which kindly requests of them to STFU

...which DHS took as a declaration of intent to comply and a request for more time. If only we had presidential candidates who were in the Senate, recognized state resistance to federal power, and could influence federal policy on this issue as a way of making their position clear for the election. Perhaps get a law repealed.

I think I would like to move to Montana and marry a large American woman and raise rabbits

MickeyD: I think I would like to move to Montana and marry a large American woman and raise rabbits

"I can travel state to state? No papers?"
"No papers"

I understand the whole states rights argument and have no problem with it. Go right ahead, and yes, the feds were overstepping their bounds in requiring you to do this.

However, the feds are perfectly within their right to no longer allow you state licenses to substitute for a valid ID to board a plane. Want to get on a plane? Either make you state comply with the ID requirements, or pay the feds to get a passport. I just can't WAIT for the whiny bastards who will be around next year whining they can't get on a plane with a passport, same with the whiney bastards who were around recently whining that they now need a passport to get back from Mexico.
No. farking. duh. Its a foreign country, you need a damn passport. Suck it up, fill out the paperwork and pay your fee ("fine").

go montana.

The Democrats promised to put into effect all recommendations of the 9/11 commission if we elected them, and this was one of them.

Suck it Montana!

I'm a Montana resident, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies...

...nah, really.

Gotana!

Hell yeah!

I might be movin' to Montana soon... (new window)

(...With a Pair of heavy-duty
Zircon-encrusted tweezers in my hand)

I predict the government is going to discover oil in Montana...

The "terrorist" explanation for why we need Real ID is the biggest crock of shiat I've ever heard. All the 9/11 hijackers were perfectly capable of getting legitimate drivers licenses.


Writ large, it's why the whole "suspicious behavior patterns" thing is stupid. Any terrorist attack that's at all dangerous will come from people who bought round-trip tickets with normal means of payment and who act naturally on the way. Because if they're skilled enough to carry out something that can actually hurt anyone, they're smarter than your average TSA agent.

miltonbabbitt: I might be movin' to Montana soon... (new window)

(...With a Pair of heavy-duty
Zircon-encrusted tweezers in my hand)

It took many drugs to make that man. I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry at his work.

SharkUW: miltonbabbitt: I might be movin' to Montana soon... (new window)

(...With a Pair of heavy-duty
Zircon-encrusted tweezers in my hand)

It took many drugs to make that man. I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry at his work.

Actually he said he opposes recreational drug use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXIi7lw_lIY&feature=related

/more Zappa goodness

Austinoftx: I predict the government is going to discover oil WMD in Montana...

FTFY

When I applied for my license in FL (transferred here from Ohio) they were handing out instant licenses to Hispanic people left and right. When it came my turn, I couldn't get my license right away because I'm a Canadian citizen. I have the Green Card, but they had to send away somewhere(China?) to get proof of my legal status. So what do I use for a license in the mean time?

There's more than one reason Florida has its own Fark tag. My temporary license was a piece of 8.5 x 11 in. paper with no photo. Just name, address, etc. A 10 year old could have recreated it on MS Word. I told the DMV chick that I had to travel for work and rent a car, and they would never let me out of the lot with that. She said they do it all the time. Sure enough, I went to Detroit, showed the guy the piece of paper and away I went. Incredible.

Katie98_KT: However, the feds are perfectly within their right to no longer allow you state licenses to substitute for a valid ID to board a plane

Really? That's a pretty broad interpretation of the "Commerce clause". Especially for flights within the same state.

This 'real ID' shiat is getting ridiculous. In Illinois if you want a driver's license (even if you already have one from out of state), you need:

1) Written Signature (old state ID card or passport)
2) Proof of Date of Birth (must be birth certificate)
3) Social Security Number (must have SS card)
4) Residency/Personal Data (utility addressed to you)

WTF do you have to show a SS# for? You've already proved citizenship with the farking birth certificate. You've shown that you're legal to have a drivers license with the old ID.

Move Senate elections back to the state legislature and everyone will win.

m2313: SharkUW:
It took many drugs to make that man. I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry at his work.

Actually he said he opposes recreational drug use.

You are correct. Zappa had a very strict "no drugs" policy for everyone he employed. If you showed up to a show or rehearsal high you were fired on the spot.

I know one of his former engineers who has told many stories about his days with Zappa and still has a couple of suitcases filled with board tapes from his touring days with Zappa. What I'd give listen to those tapes...

While having a standard drivers license that every state will be able to recognize as a valid, legitimate license is good, REAL ID is going to cause needless red tape and expense.

To get a REAL ID you'll need to do the following:

1. Produce proof of US citizenship (certified birth certificate or valid US passport) or show proof of legal immigrant status (green card or I-94 with visa stamp in a valid foreign passport)

2. Show proof of residency (mortgage, deed, lease or utility bills)

3. Have a valid Social Security number or show proof of being ineligible for one

4. Increased fees (some reports are saying $100+ for renewal of a standard drivers license)

The documents you present to meet the qualifications for a REAL ID must be verified as authentic (by DMV clerks who are making about $10/hr) and the issuing agency of the documents has to be contracted to verify their validity. Copies of the documents must be stored digitally for 7 years.

The days of same-day license renewal and internet renewal are gone. Now, you'll submit your documents and have your license sent to you in the mail.

Of course, this raises some flaws.

What about US citizens who are unable to find proof of their citizenship? What if the documents they need have been destroyed? What if some DMV drone says their valid document is no good and they need to get something else?

How many people know where their birth certificate is? If they can't find it, they have to order it from the agency that issued it and that will take time and money.

What about those who don't have a lease, mortgage or utilities in their name? (A lot of teenagers applying for their licenses will be in this situation).

What happens if the documents you submitted are lost while they are processing your application?

When you renew your license, do you have to go through the entire REAL ID process again? What about when you move to another state?

What happens if a corrupt DMV employee starts selling REAL IDs to the highest bidder?

Shaggy_C: This 'real ID' shiat is getting ridiculous. In Illinois if you want a driver's license (even if you already have one from out of state), you need:

1) Written Signature (old state ID card or passport)
2) Proof of Date of Birth (must be birth certificate)
3) Social Security Number (must have SS card)
4) Residency/Personal Data (utility addressed to you)

WTF do you have to show a SS# for? You've already proved citizenship with the farking birth certificate. You've shown that you're legal to have a drivers license with the old ID.

The best part is that if you look at the requirements for obtaining those 4 documents as well as the requirements for obtaining the requirements, you'll find that you don't really need much at all.

/this hoop, jump through it

SharkUW: The best part is that if you look at the requirements for obtaining those 4 documents as well as the requirements for obtaining the requirements, you'll find that you don't really need much at all.

No kidding. I think with just the birth certificate you can get a passport. Why is it harder to get a driver's license than it is to come in internationally?

Shaggy_C: This 'real ID' shiat is getting ridiculous. In Illinois if you want a driver's license (even if you already have one from out of state), you need:

1) Written Signature (old state ID card or passport)
2) Proof of Date of Birth (must be birth certificate)
3) Social Security Number (must have SS card)
4) Residency/Personal Data (utility addressed to you)

WTF do you have to show a SS# for? You've already proved citizenship with the farking birth certificate. You've shown that you're legal to have a drivers license with the old ID.

Actually, Illinois has stated they're not going to do REAL ID. The Social Security number run through SSOLV, CDLIS and PDPS. These make sure that your number is legitimate, no other licenses have been issued to that SS# and that you're currently no suspended, revoked or canceled in any other state.

dustman81: Actually, Illinois has stated they're not going to do REAL ID. The Social Security number run through SSOLV, CDLIS and PDPS. These make sure that your number is legitimate, no other licenses have been issued to that SS# and that you're currently no suspended, revoked or canceled in any other state.

Still, couldn't you just give them your name and number and they look it up? I don't understand the reason to actually have your physical SS card on you. It's just damn annoying...I've never had to take mine out of the safe until last week.

Shaggy_C: Still, couldn't you just give them your name and number and they look it up? I don't understand the reason to actually have your physical SS card on you. It's just damn annoying...I've never had to take mine out of the safe until last week.

Because then they can see how the name is spelled on the card and have the actual SS# in front of them.

Ohio makes first-time license or ID applicants show their SS card, but then when they renew, they don't need it as it is already on record.

dustman81:

Yeah, that utilities thing is a real kicker, and you'll remember they were trying to require a Real ID to vote before that got shot down. Class war anyone?

kindly? they need to start getting rude.

Katie98_KT: However, the feds are perfectly within their right to no longer allow you state licenses to substitute for a valid ID to board a plane.

Yeah, not so much. Article IV section 2 of the Constitution says that "[t]he citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states." Since no state requires you to produce ID to move within the state, the Federal government can not force you to produce ID to move from one state to another. The requirement to present photo ID before boarding a plane is plainly unconstitutional, and should be scrapped.

And even if it is legal for them to require ID, the Feds have no authority to tell the states what their ID must look like. So they have to accept whatever the several states come up with on their own.

dustman81: Ohio makes first-time license or ID applicants show their SS card, but then when they renew, they don't need it as it is already on record.

Hmm...I just remember being 16 and getting my first license, and it was as simple as a birth certificate. This new requirement reeks of pandering to the anti-immigrant bias going on these days.

Descartes: The Democrats promised to put into effect all recommendations of the 9/11 commission if we elected them, and this was one of them.

Suck it Montana!

so Bush and the Republicans bear no responsibility for this at all? gotcha.

dustman81: Shaggy_C: Still, couldn't you just give them your name and number and they look it up? I don't understand the reason to actually have your physical SS card on you. It's just damn annoying...I've never had to take mine out of the safe until last week.

Because then they can see how the name is spelled on the card and have the actual SS# in front of them.

Ohio makes first-time license or ID applicants show their SS card, but then when they renew, they don't need it as it is already on record.

Actually when I went to get a new ID I had to again show my social security card. Even with my old ID in front of me with me I had to show my social security card

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuk64FFG1v8

/not Zappa
/more importantly not Rick

When it comes to classic "Mind your business and I'll mind mine" style states we really only have three states left that still remain somewhat loyal to that ideal: Montana, New Hampshire, and Alaska. New Hampshire is supposed to be ground zero for the ultimate libertarian experiment, but doesn't look like it's going to amount to much. Libertarians are terrible at movements. The movement splintered on day one

The FSP should have chosen Montana, an absolutely beautiful place.

Aar1012: Actually when I went to get a new ID I had to again show my social security card. Even with my old ID in front of me with me I had to show my social security card

When did you go? They dropped the SS card requirement for renewals on November 20, 2007.

What they need to do is stop combining stuff. Drivers' licenses should be just that: a license for the holder to drive a car on the roads of the United States... nothing more, nothing less. Just make everyone who wants to fly and such get a passport. It's not that hard.

Robobuu: What they need to do is stop combining stuff. Drivers' licenses should be just that: a license for the holder to drive a car on the roads of the United States... nothing more, nothing less. Just make everyone who wants to fly and such get a passport. It's not that hard.

This.

AndyMan1: Robobuu: What they need to do is stop combining stuff. Drivers' licenses should be just that: a license for the holder to drive a car on the roads of the United States... nothing more, nothing less. Just make everyone who wants to fly and such get a passport. It's not that hard.

This.

Actually, This. to the first part, not to the passport requirement for flying. Preview is your friend.

Showing your identity for flying does absolutely nothing other than make the airlines more money.

AndyMan1: AndyMan1: Robobuu: What they need to do is stop combining stuff. Drivers' licenses should be just that: a license for the holder to drive a car on the roads of the United States... nothing more, nothing less. Just make everyone who wants to fly and such get a passport. It's not that hard.

This.

Actually, This. to the first part, not to the passport requirement for flying. Preview is your friend.

Showing your identity for flying does absolutely nothing other than make the airlines more money.

How does this help the airlines make more money? It makes flying even less attractive.

So the government wants to consolidate as many databases with my various information on it. Then allow it to be viewed by low-level, and often contract employees. Like the candidates personal info from their passport app that only got caught because those entries were flagged to alert when viewed. And that all federal information about could be viewed by a neighbor who happens to not like me because of some random fence or other HOA style bullshiat that could lead to gov't harassment.

/what could go wrong?

Katie98_KT: I just can't WAIT for the whiny bastards who will be around next year whining they can't get on a plane with a passport, same with the whiney bastards who were around recently whining that they now need a passport to get back from Mexico.

So you support a bunch of needless bureaucratic bullsh*t. Congratulations. I wouldn't have like, blurted it out'n'sh*t, but hey.

Our government, if anything, needs to prove that "Terrorism" (yes, capital "T") is really big enough of a threat to warrant taking out a separate war on its own citizenry.

Oh, and if passports are required, they should be affordable or even free to the American populace, especially if there's such an imminent threat to our country.

Okay, here's a real question: what purpose does requiring an ID to fly serve?

Good for them. I know that recently SC was seeking court action against the Feds on this, but I don't know what became of it.

t3knomanser: Okay, here's a real question: what purpose does requiring an ID to fly serve?

Identifying the bodies, among other things.

t3knomanser: Okay, here's a real question: what purpose does requiring an ID to fly serve?

Mainly stopping you from reselling your tickets on an airplane.

Bored Horde: Mainly stopping you from reselling your tickets on an airplane.

So it's the job of the Federal government to stop scalpers?

[raises hand]

I have a question:

If the REAL ID thing goes through....

and I jump through all those Goddamned hoops to get a REAL ID....

and it REALly IDentifies me.... as a non-terrorist....

will I still have to take off my Goddamned shoes at the airport? Will I be able to bring a Goddamned water bottle through Goddamned security manned by, as some genius posted in a recent thread, "McDonald's employees who believe they have the power and responsibilities of the FBI"?

'Cause if I do still have to go through all that shiat, then what was the point of the REAL ID?

Any bets?

Anyone?

::crickets::

Thought so.