nearly 4,000 U.S. military deaths and more than 60,000 wounded - with no end in sight. Iraqis count their dead and injured in much higher figures - hundreds of thousands at least...

...$12 billion a month by some estimates, $500 billion all together, and the prospect of hundreds of billions more.

A small price to pay for the very important corners we've turned.

The Sunnis, Shias and Kurds have only been fighting each other since the beginning of time, so it will take at least another couple of years to straighten it all out. Especially considering how much they hate our freedom.

Durham, 59, struggled to describe the emotions. He decided: "It's like watching somebody with a disease. Perhaps they can live, perhaps they can't. ... And there's nothing you can do about it."

He's describing our country :(

And to think, all those poor patriotic defense contractors after doubling their production have to deal with all that government money flowing in. For christ's sake, they're running out of banks to put it in. And dutifully they do it all for the sake of our freedom! *salutes the flag*

/Won't somebody please think of the defense contractors?

Over one brazillion invented.

The Pentagon must have a different dictionary than I have. Mine doesn't mention anything about maintaining a foreign military occupation in a sovereign nation against the will of the people.

We may be nicer than their last tyrant they had but we're the ones responsible for the new tyranny they're under and that puts us on the wrong side of this thing.

You'll be in Iraq until the end.

Whose end? We'll wait and see.

Way to go neocons.

Pocket Ninja: A small price to pay for the very important corners we've turned.

Hehe. Don't forget, if you turn enough corners, you'll end up right back where you started!

The Pentagon - Helping Americans throw away the flower of their youth since 1967.

Nice, Zarkin. I haven't seen that before.

milk_plus: The Pentagon must have a different dictionary than I have. Mine doesn't mention anything about maintaining a foreign military occupation in a sovereign nation against the will of the people.

We may be nicer than their last tyrant they had but we're the ones responsible for the new tyranny they're under and that puts us on the wrong side of this thing.

The US has a long history of championing "democracy" while ensuring the only "choices" available are in their best interests. And by "the US", I mean the political regimes and their moneyed friends. You know, the ones who stand to profit off this, not the ones sending their children to die for essentially fictitious reasons.

This isn't even new. It's been going on since your country was founded. You aren't a Democracy yourselves; you're a Republic, politically speaking. It's a lot harder to sell a republic as good for the "little guy", though, so the spin's been going for centuries.

Once when we were a great country, lead by real men and military leaders that actually knew what they were doing, we kicked the Japs and the Nazi's asses in 4 years on 2 sides of the world. This bunch can't beat a country the size of Montana in 5 years and they want to stay 4 more years? God help the 14-17 year old kids, they will be dragged into this mess and sent home either crippled ( mental as well as phyisical) or in a body bag. We all know this is NOT about terrorist, but oil. You young ones are saying "shut up old guy" and thats OK. But the people of this country need to face the facts. It's OIL and $$$ not Iraqi Freedom, OK?

If Clinton had done his job then we wouldn't be here.

For others, it's about a mounting loss of goodwill overseas: "We've squandered our good name," said Ryan Meehan, 29, sitting in a St. Louis coffee shop.

mmm, coffee shop intellectuals.

tampaflacouple:

I'm 25, and even I could've told you this war was about oil and enriching the military-industrial complex.

What happens if the cannon fodder simply refuses to go? It's not our war, we were not represented in the declaration of this illegal action. Will Congress ever find the stones to stop funding this mess? It's time to pull out of Iraq-Nam and Afghanist-Nam. Congress represents the will of the people.....NOT the President. Congress has the authority to declare war....NOT the President. Every member of Congress that voted to give the President that power violated their oath of office and should be removed without hesitation.

So we've come full circle. As in WW1, we're fighting and dying to preserve a regional order created by European colonial powers, with arbitrary borders drawn against all common sense and recognition of ethnic/tribal realities. In this case, those borders were drawn as a result of... Allied "victory" WW1.

Ain't karma a biatch.

Marcus Aurelius: The Sunnis, Shias and Kurds have only been fighting each other since the beginning of time, so it will take at least another couple of years to straighten it all out.

Your logic: People have only been raping and killing since the beginning of time, so a few laws outlawing those acts are not worth enacting.

Or am I wrong?

organs in mains: If Clinton had done his job then we wouldn't be here.

But..but..but..Clinton

Pathetic

I get so damn sad wondering what could've been done with that 500 billion (so far), or why I feel like I'm walking around with a target on my back when I visit Indonesia or Thailand or even Italy.

It's just so damn incomprehensible how people can still believe in and support this horrible mistake and the man who made it.

God damn Bush.

Pocket Ninja: nearly 4,000 U.S. military deaths and more than 60,000 wounded - with no end in sight. Iraqis count their dead and injured in much higher figures - hundreds of thousands at least...

...$12 billion a month by some estimates, $500 billion all together, and the prospect of hundreds of billions more.

A small price to pay for the very important corners we've turned.

GYWO: What kind of dodecahedron-ass shape is this anyway?

Pocket Ninja: A small price to pay for the very important corners we've turned.

I take it you are planning to support candidates who might have to increase your taxes, since it is such a small price to pay.

organs in mains2008-03-16 12:43:07 PM
If Clinton had done his job then we wouldn't be here.

Actually, He was on a break when he had a pizza delivered by an intern. If the Republicans hadn't closed down the government, that pizza would never have been delivered and the towers would still be standing.

Wow, I sure didn't see this one coming... weird.

oh, and btw:

organs in mains: If Clinton had done his job then we wouldn't be here.

weak sauce. At least make it seem as if you were putting some effort into it.

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Ain't karma a biatch.

Let's hope that we do better than we did with the Treaty of Versailles when this is all over and it's time to resume (or perhaps, finally begin?) regional diplomacy. If ever a peace treaty was designed to foment a war, it was that one.

lajimi: What happens if the cannon fodder simply refuses to go? It's not our war, we were not represented in the declaration of this illegal action.

That's what drafts are for. If people won't volunteer, they'll force you at gunpoint.


Will Congress ever find the stones to stop funding this mess? It's time to pull out of Iraq-Nam and Afghanist-Nam. Congress represents the will of the people.....NOT the President. Congress has the authority to declare war....NOT the President. Every member of Congress that voted to give the President that power violated their oath of office and should be removed without hesitation.

Congress has just as many financial connections and interests as the President. It's in Congress' best interest to push the war, too; their friends are making money at this too. While there are differences between the parties, you're not paying attention if you think either has any reason whatsoever to give a damn about the people.

organs in mains: If ClintonBush Sr. had done his job then we wouldn't be here.

FTFY.

Yep. And anybody who doesn't think taxes are going to have to be raised needs to wake up. The rest of the world ain't gonna support us anymore. Hey, old people who love this war! When you have to give up your Social Security checks to keep the war going in Iraq, will you do it because Prez McCain says we need to?

United States in World War I:
April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918 = 1 year, 8 months, 5 days

United States in World War II:
December 7, 1941 to September 2, 1945 = 3 years, 9 months, 26 days

Total time = 5 years, 5 months, 2 daysa

U.S. War on Terrorism in Afghanistan:
September 19, 2001 to present = 6 years, 6 months, 28 days

U.S. War on Terrorism in Iraq:
March 20, 2003 to present = almost 5 years

/sad
//epic fail by Bush

milk_plus: The Pentagon must have a different dictionary than I have. Mine doesn't mention anything about maintaining a foreign military occupation in a sovereign nation against the will of the people.

We may be nicer than their last tyrant they had but we're the ones responsible for the new tyranny they're under and that puts us on the wrong side of this thing.

Wow, sounds like the Iraqi were screwed either way. We go in and they have to put up with our tyranny and if we don't, they have to put up with Saddam's.

Having spent time in Iraq, I'm telling you that while there are some bad guys in our uniform who are cruel and bad, a majority of American soldiers just want stability, a good economy and stable infrastructure. It's the insurgents that are the tyrants.

organs in mains: If Clinton had done his job then we wouldn't be here.

Yeah, Bush Sr. never had the opportunity to nip it in the bud.

...wait

toastmonkey42: organs in mains: If Clinton Bush Sr. Reagan Carter Ford Nixon Johnson Kennedy the farking Thessalonian Emperor had done his job then we wouldn't be here.

FTFY.

FTF history. The current problems in the Middle-East are the result of DECADES of poor policy, meddling and exploitation by Europe and America, on top of CENTURIES of infighting among tribal and imperial entities. That said, the West's actions of the last 40 years have been particularly destabilizing.

Get America Out Of Germany!

/Let our boys come home

droptone: Marcus Aurelius: The Sunnis, Shias and Kurds have only been fighting each other since the beginning of time, so it will take at least another couple of years to straighten it all out.

Your logic: People have only been raping and killing since the beginning of time, so a few laws outlawing those acts are not worth enacting.

Or am I wrong?

No, the better analogy would be if we decided to deploy a massive army to the streets, dorms, homes, etc. of America in an attempt to stop rape or any behavior we didn't approve of. Just because there is moral justification to stop an action doesn't mean any solution is morally justified.

A better place to start would be teaching people to have more sexual respect for women, not letting rapists back out once we catch them, allowing people the means to defend themselves, etc.

So the mentioning of the timelessness of their violence is putting some boundaries on what can realistically be accomplished which limits the solution we can implement.

To put it simply, anyone who is happier than a pig in shiat for us to be stuck in Iraq probably doesn't deserve to be in power.

We could have done this quick and clean. But NO. We had to bring DEMOCRACY to a country that simply does not want it.

We all make mistakes, just don't let us vote an asshat like that into the presidency again.

Why wait to get rid of Bush? Impeach him now!

If we can have government hearings on Bill Clinton getting some intern booty, then surely we should be allowed to look into why an administration was allowed to start a neverending war that is ruining this country day by day.

Don't tell me we don't have assassination squads on standby. Bush could have taken Saddam out at any point for attempting to kill Daddy. They would have kept it quiet, and then once the truth came out after he left office, no one would care.

The fact that he has to put all these lives at risk (not just the soldiers, but the Iraqi civilians getting killed by bombers targeting soldiers) just to kill one guy and call it a war burns my biscuits.

I don't have to know how much we farked up for letting Bush become president. Because I voted for him the first time.

/dons his asbestos suit

Kuta: United States in World War I:
April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918 = 1 year, 8 months, 5 days

United States in World War II:
December 7, 1941 to September 2, 1945 = 3 years, 9 months, 26 days

Total time = 5 years, 5 months, 2 daysa

U.S. War on Terrorism in Afghanistan:
September 19, 2001 to present = 6 years, 6 months, 28 days

U.S. War on Terrorism in Iraq:
March 20, 2003 to present = almost 5 years

/sad
//epic fail by Bush

Bush failed to listen to his commanders. If he wouldn't have gone half-arsed into the fight, committing 500k troops to lockdown the entire country, we would have probably been in and out in a year. Instead, he decided on 160k or something like that and it's costs us billions of dollars and thousands of lives more.

/Thinks the war wasn't a bad idea, replacing tyrants usually aren't
//Thinks Bush's actions made it much worse than it has to be

greased up deaf guy: Having spent time in Iraq, I'm telling you that while there are some bad guys in our uniform who are cruel and bad, a majority of American soldiers just want stability, a good economy and stable infrastructure. It's the insurgents that are the tyrants.

Our troops were put in an untenable situation as soon as the mission changed from "topple Saddam" to "rebuild Iraq" which should have never happened. We shouldn't have gone in without vast international support to begin with. None of this is the fault of our foot soldiers but mostly with the President and his administration.

Just don't let the Republicans convince you that they care more about the military then anyone else does. The last six years should serve as an example of what they really think.

organs in mains 2008-03-16 12:43:07 PM
If Clinton had done his job then we wouldn't be here.

So few words, so much stupid. Kudos!

Highroller48: toastmonkey42: organs in mains: If Clinton Bush Sr. Reagan Carter Ford Nixon Johnson Kennedy the farking Thessalonian Emperor had done his job then we wouldn't be here.

FTFY.

FTF history. The current problems in the Middle-East are the result of DECADES of poor policy, meddling and exploitation by Europe and America, on top of CENTURIES of infighting among tribal and imperial entities. That said, the West's actions of the last 40 years have been particularly destabilizing.

While I agree with your general stance, I think the guy who failed most was Muhammad. He had the entire region united at one point and by not being specific on how he planned on passing power, allowed the Arab world to splinter.

greased up deaf guy: Wow, sounds like the Iraqi were screwed either way. We go in and they have to put up with our tyranny and if we don't, they have to put up with Saddam's.

Having spent time in Iraq, I'm telling you that while there are some bad guys in our uniform who are cruel and bad, a majority of American soldiers just want stability, a good economy and stable infrastructure. It's the insurgents that are the tyrants.

The issue is that American companies profit from rebuilding Iraq, not to mention the cheaper oil, so long as American forces and politicians ensure the "stability" brought in is an America-friendly stability.

It's no different than when the US removed the democratically-elected Iranian government to put in an America-friendly monarchy. They're just using "democracy" as a buzzword to get people to ignore the fact that the war is being fought for profit. Those billions of dollars being spent? Guarantee most of them are ending up in the pockets of American CEOs friendly to the current administration. The administration and they are colluding to profit immensely while bankrupting the nation. Because they don't really give a damn about the US, merely their own wellbeing.

Yogimus: Get America Out Of Germany!

/Let our boys come home

I thought WWII started because Germany invaded Poland?

Pocket Ninja: A small price to pay for the very important corners we've turned.

wait!WHAT?

what corners?
why were they important?
SMALL??
was this meant as sarcasm?

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

droptone: For others, it's about a mounting loss of goodwill overseas: "We've squandered our good name," said Ryan Meehan, 29, sitting in a St. Louis coffee shop.

mmm, coffee shop intellectuals.


Yes, many intellectuals drink coffee. I for one am very far from intellectual until and unless I get coffee!

DO you think Bush will keep flying back each thanksgiving to do this?

We hold these truths to be self-evident

No, the better analogy would be if we decided to deploy a massive army to the streets, dorms, homes, etc. of America in an attempt to stop rape or any behavior we didn't approve of.

You should add....and then have some of the troops take part in the very rapes and such we were trying to prevent. We cannot claim a moral high ground, without earning it...and in the eyes of the world, we have lost that right.

organs in mains: If Clinton had done his job then we wouldn't be here.

How about if Bush and his neocon fluffers didn't recklessly and belligerently start a war based on lies we wouldn't be there.

And to those of you who, rather than apologize for supporting this failure of a war at its outset, are instead doubling-down your support in order to save face and paying for it with the lives of American soldiers: you are scum.

tampaflacouple

Once when we were a great country, lead by real men and military leaders that actually knew what they were doing, we kicked the Japs and the Nazi's asses in 4 years on 2 sides of the world. This bunch can't beat a country the size of Montana in 5 years and they want to stay 4 more years.....

We were a great country back then....Thats when women stayed at home kept their mouths shut and took care of their men. Thats when blacks were not eating in the same resturants or drinking from the same water fountains as whites. Thats when gays lived a very secret life and were not anywhere near main stream society.....America was total greatness back then! We have totally gone down the tube since then!

Dont forget about those 'real men and military leaders' who knew what they were doing. Ever hear of Hiroshima? Or the Japanese American internment camps!

Dont forget about those WWII bombing runs where anything in a 2 mile radius of a factory was considered colleteral damamge. We were killing nazi supporters so it was ok...even if it was women and children, right?

BTW: that country the size of Montana you are talking about...we took it in just a few weeks. Thing is we did not go to war with a country. We went to war with radical militant groups that hide in countries throught out that region and the rest of the world, big difference.


I'm curious, if we started carpet bombing and nuking cities in Iraq, and Iran like those 'real men and military leaders' dad back in WWII you see America as great again?