Isn't overturning the result if it is bad the reason they set up the Superdelegates in the 80's

aaannnd playing the role of stopped clock, Nanci Pelosi (D-UH)

Considering she's Speaker of the friggin' House and thus probably knows what's going on and what's being said among and to the superdelegates, Hillary should take this as a sign that the superdelegates aren't going to overturn 30 states (and counting) wanting Barack Obama as the Democratic nominee.

The Obvious tag must be out at an Obama rally or something.

Hey Nancy, I let you know if I want your opinion on anything. Ever since "impeachment is off the table" you've pretty much proved your uselessness.

But her remarks seemed to suggest she was prepared to cast her ballot at the convention in favor of the candidate who emerges from the primary season with the most pledged delegates.


Translation: 'Hillary! STFU and get off the damn stage!'

that is NOT a good thing to hear if you are a Hillary-ite. Which should be a none to subtle clue to Team Clinton to back the hell outta the race. The senate leaders and now the House leaders are telling Hillary that they're going to support Obama and not her. Big money guys are telling the DNC they're backing out and cutting funding if the democrats keep screwing up the primaries and Hillary just keeps grasping at straws to stay in the race despite loss after loss after loss....

It's a mess and God help me I do love it so...

globalwarmingpraiser: Isn't overturning the result if it is bad the reason they set up the Superdelegates in the 80's

Yes, but how many of the current superdelegates were actually involved in that decision?

And now 7 of Edwards Iowa delegates have jumped ship and endorsed Obama. Maybe... just maybe, somewhere in that warren of madness someone has a brain...

...but I doubt it

This primary is about 75% sure to destroy the Democratic party. The hardcore Hillary supporters would urge her to make an independent run and that would be the end of it all. I think at this point there is a good chance she would do it.

big_pth: This primary is about 75% sure to destroy the Democratic party. The hardcore Hillary supporters would urge her to make an independent run and that would be the end of it all. I think at this point there is a good chance she would do it.

I don't think she'd go that far. Even if she doesn't get the nomination, she's doing her best to tank Obama's chance at a win in November. I think she's angling for 2012 at this point. She'll rack up some hard foreign policy experience and introduce a few economic bills over the next four years and hope to unseat McCain in the next round. An independent run would be political suicide for her. She may be a bit crazy, but she isn't stupid.

big_pth: This primary is about 75% sure to destroy the Democratic party. The hardcore Hillary supporters would urge her to make an independent run and that would be the end of it all. I think at this point there is a good chance she would do it.

Would never happen. Hillary is entirely the product of a party. There's nothing remotely independent about her. She completely relies on connections and favors.

big_pth: This primary is about 75% sure to destroy the Democratic party. The hardcore Hillary supporters would urge her to make an independent run and that would be the end of it all. I think at this point there is a good chance she would do it.

Interesting point. Anyone got poll numbers on how such a race would turn out?

Empanda: big_pth: This primary is about 75% sure to destroy the Democratic party. The hardcore Hillary supporters would urge her to make an independent run and that would be the end of it all. I think at this point there is a good chance she would do it.

I don't think she'd go that far. Even if she doesn't get the nomination, she's doing her best to tank Obama's chance at a win in November. I think she's angling for 2012 at this point. She'll rack up some hard foreign policy experience and introduce a few economic bills over the next four years and hope to unseat McCain in the next round. An independent run would be political suicide for her. She may be a bit crazy, but she isn't stupid.

Let me put it to you this way, if she DOES damage Obama...and her little snit causes the party to loose this election, then she will NEVER be forgiven by the party.

In fact, I can almost guarantee that she's already destroyed any remaining goodwill they had for her.

Old-Musical, Tasty-mexican-dish

Would never happen. Hillary is entirely the product of a party. There's nothing remotely independent about her. She completely relies on connections and favors.

I don't think she'd go that far. Even if she doesn't get the nomination, she's doing her best to tank Obama's chance at a win in November. I think she's angling for 2012 at this point. She'll rack up some hard foreign policy experience and introduce a few economic bills over the next four years and hope to unseat McCain in the next round. An independent run would be political suicide for her. She may be a bit crazy, but she isn't stupid.

So, what you are saying is that she is not so desperate to become president, that she is not willing to do ANYTHING to win at this point? You both give her more credit than I do...

Darth_Lukecash: In fact, I can almost guarantee that she's already destroyed any remaining goodwill they had for her.

All the more reason for her to fight tooth and nail--she's got nothing to lose.

Darth_Lukecash: Empanda: big_pth: This primary is about 75% sure to destroy the Democratic party. The hardcore Hillary supporters would urge her to make an independent run and that would be the end of it all. I think at this point there is a good chance she would do it.

I don't think she'd go that far. Even if she doesn't get the nomination, she's doing her best to tank Obama's chance at a win in November. I think she's angling for 2012 at this point. She'll rack up some hard foreign policy experience and introduce a few economic bills over the next four years and hope to unseat McCain in the next round. An independent run would be political suicide for her. She may be a bit crazy, but she isn't stupid.

Let me put it to you this way, if she DOES damage Obama...and her little snit causes the party to loose this election, then she will NEVER be forgiven by the party.

In fact, I can almost guarantee that she's already destroyed any remaining goodwill they had for her.

I think she might be trusting in her popularity to keep her standing. Could be she's hoping for a cookie to shut her up if she keeps it up. Something like VP or Senate Majority Leader.

big_pth: This primary is about 75% sure to destroy the Democratic party. The hardcore Hillary supporters would urge her to make an independent run and that would be the end of it all. I think at this point there is a good chance she would do it.

Never never never. She needs the DNC money. She can't run as an indy.

BravadoGT: big_pth: This primary is about 75% sure to destroy the Democratic party. The hardcore Hillary supporters would urge her to make an independent run and that would be the end of it all. I think at this point there is a good chance she would do it.

Never never never. She needs the DNC money. She can't run as an indy.

True, she needs the support of the DNC to have a credible shot at getting elected.

However.....I think Hillary knows this is her one and only shot at getting into the white house. The stars, as they say, are right. She misses this chance, it won't happen again. So the question is - what happens when she loses the race? will she take a 'scorched earth' approach to the convention? Does she destroy the democrat's chances in 2008 out of a sense of raving madness and hatred? Or does she accept her loss gracefully and support Obama's run against McCain?

I wouldn't be surprised if she'd run as an independent. She has the ego. The feminists will come out for her, and probably some of the Hispanics, but really she's running for older women at this point for whom this will be their only shot seeing a woman as president. And that's what this is really all about, isn't it?

Weaver95: BravadoGT: big_pth: This primary is about 75% sure to destroy the Democratic party. The hardcore Hillary supporters would urge her to make an independent run and that would be the end of it all. I think at this point there is a good chance she would do it.

Never never never. She needs the DNC money. She can't run as an indy.

True, she needs the support of the DNC to have a credible shot at getting elected.

However.....I think Hillary knows this is her one and only shot at getting into the white house. The stars, as they say, are right. She misses this chance, it won't happen again. So the question is - what happens when she loses the race? will she take a 'scorched earth' approach to the convention? Does she destroy the democrat's chances in 2008 out of a sense of raving madness and hatred? Or does she accept her loss gracefully and support Obama's run against McCain?




Agrees with you.

Weaver95: BravadoGT: big_pth: This primary is about 75% sure to destroy the Democratic party. The hardcore Hillary supporters would urge her to make an independent run and that would be the end of it all. I think at this point there is a good chance she would do it.

Never never never. She needs the DNC money. She can't run as an indy.

True, she needs the support of the DNC to have a credible shot at getting elected.

However.....I think Hillary knows this is her one and only shot at getting into the white house. The stars, as they say, are right. She misses this chance, it won't happen again. So the question is - what happens when she loses the race? will she take a 'scorched earth' approach to the convention? Does she destroy the democrat's chances in 2008 out of a sense of raving madness and hatred? Or does she accept her loss gracefully and support Obama's run against McCain?

I'm not sure that this is her only shot. It might be. But I think you're right-I just can't see her giving up without a fight. A knock-down, drag-out, bloody fight. When it's all over, you're the Dems are going to have a beaten down, staggering candidate, an angry, bitter, divided base, and their opponent-good ol' John McCain-sipping a cup of tea, fresh as a daisy, and rising "above it all."

Give it to the Democrats-As Abba Eban once said about the Palestinians, "they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Jesus Farking Christ: I wouldn't be surprised if she'd run as an independent. She has the ego. The feminists will come out for her, and probably some of the Hispanics, but really she's running for older women at this point for whom this will be their only shot seeing a woman as president. And that's what this is really all about, isn't it?

Really unless you are over 80 I doubt Hillary is your only shot at seeing a woman president. This stuff about no other woman running for a long time if she loses is nonsense. Jesse Jackson's candidacy tanked, it didn't stop Obama from running. I really don't know where this 'last chance to see a woman president' stuff comes from.

Empanda: Jesus Farking Christ: I wouldn't be surprised if she'd run as an independent. She has the ego. The feminists will come out for her, and probably some of the Hispanics, but really she's running for older women at this point for whom this will be their only shot seeing a woman as president. And that's what this is really all about, isn't it?

Really unless you are over 80 I doubt Hillary is your only shot at seeing a woman president. This stuff about no other woman running for a long time if she loses is nonsense. Jesse Jackson's candidacy tanked, it didn't stop Obama from running. I really don't know where this 'last chance to see a woman president' stuff comes from.

Empanda/Drew '28!

DamnYankees: Empanda: Jesus Farking Christ: I wouldn't be surprised if she'd run as an independent. She has the ego. The feminists will come out for her, and probably some of the Hispanics, but really she's running for older women at this point for whom this will be their only shot seeing a woman as president. And that's what this is really all about, isn't it?

Really unless you are over 80 I doubt Hillary is your only shot at seeing a woman president. This stuff about no other woman running for a long time if she loses is nonsense. Jesse Jackson's candidacy tanked, it didn't stop Obama from running. I really don't know where this 'last chance to see a woman president' stuff comes from.

Empanda/Drew '28!

Thanks for the endorsement, but as an unapologetic atheist I am currently unelectable by anything short of an armed revolution. So unless Obama manages to change the country even more than I think he will, I think it's safe to rule out any presidential bids from me.

Empanda: I really don't know where this 'last chance to see a woman president' stuff comes from.

Hillary Clinton.

She really does believe that she is the last chance for a woman to get elected president in this country.

Arrogant, yes...but that's Hillary. Her way or nothing.

Empanda: Thanks for the endorsement, but as an unapologetic atheist I am currently unelectable by anything short of an armed revolution. So unless Obama manages to change the country even more than I think he will, I think it's safe to rule out any presidential bids from me.

As an unapologetic atheist, you just earned a pledge of $2,300 once your campaign starts!

Weaver95: Hillary Clinton.

Has she ever said that herself? I don't recall it coming from her.

BravadoGT: Give it to the Democrats-As Abba Eban once said about the Palestinians, "they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Hahaha. I think this is just about the best characterization of the Democrats ever.

DamnYankees: Weaver95: Hillary Clinton.

Has she ever said that herself? I don't recall it coming from her.

Not directly, but a lot of her people HAVE said as much. That's the mantra - Hillary is the 'last chance', she's the savior, it's preordained, she's the woman of the year, blah, blah, woof woof.

What are super delgates for if not to overturn elections?

"The case for government by elites is irrefutable...government by the people is possible but highly improbable."
-- J. William Fulbright, Democrat , Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, 1963,

Weaver95: DamnYankees: Weaver95: Hillary Clinton.

Has she ever said that herself? I don't recall it coming from her.

Not directly, but a lot of her people HAVE said as much. That's the mantra - Hillary is the 'last chance', she's the savior, it's preordained, she's the woman of the year, blah, blah, woof woof.

Oh, I agree. But you said it comes from Clinton. I think the truth is a lot of her supporters are women who are over 60, and for them it probably is the last chance in their lifetimes. But that's just as true for any black people over 60, and I've *never* heard anyone make that argument for Obama.

DamnYankees: Empanda: Thanks for the endorsement, but as an unapologetic atheist I am currently unelectable by anything short of an armed revolution. So unless Obama manages to change the country even more than I think he will, I think it's safe to rule out any presidential bids from me.

As an unapologetic atheist, you just earned a pledge of $2,300 once your campaign starts!

I probably would do okay on the fundraising front as most of my donors wouldn't be tossing their money at a church. Still, until that happens, I have to go to work. I might haul in big donors as an unapologetic atheist candidate, but as an unapologetic atheist waitress I just scrape by.

Digeratus: BravadoGT: Give it to the Democrats-As Abba Eban once said about the Palestinians, "they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Hahaha. I think this is just about the best characterization of the Democrats ever.

I liked Lewis Black's description better:

you have the Democratic party, which is the party of NO ideas and you have the Republican party, which is the party of BAD ideas.

Empanda: I think she might be trusting in her popularity to keep her standing. Could be she's hoping for a cookie to shut her up if she keeps it up. Something like VP or Senate Majority Leader.

We have months and months to figure this out, and the Dems might as well keep up a show through all the primaries. That in itself will energize places that haven't had an interesting primary in decades.

That said, I hope someone on Howard Dean's team is figuring out what kind of deal Hillary will make to reunite the party at the convention. Maybe Hillary can inoculate Obama against various dirty tricks by spending bullets like Rezko, etc. before the Rovian party can while she's at it.

It's possible the deal's already done, and she's actually being evil on behalf of the Democrats...

DamnYankees: Oh, I agree.

Where do you think her followers GET that message? Hillary is a control freak. Do you really believe she would allow her followers to hear a message she didn't agree with?

BravadoGT: But I think you're right-I just can't see her giving up without a fight. A knock-down, drag-out, bloody fight. When it's all over, you're the Dems are going to have a beaten down, staggering candidate, an angry, bitter, divided base, and their opponent-good ol' John McCain-sipping a cup of tea, fresh as a daisy, and rising "above it all."

I can't remember who did it (and my google-fu is too weak for this) but I recall a political cartoon a while back showing a beached whale suffocating in the sand with "Democratic Party" on it while two guys stand to the side and one says something like "No one knows why, but every four years they do this."

hasty ambush: What are super delgates for if not to overturn elections?

"The case for government by elites is irrefutable...government by the people is possible but highly improbable."
-- J. William Fulbright, Democrat , Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, 1963,

Not that I agree all that much, but I thought one of the purposes of the superdelegates was to insure that the party's candidate was chosen. In some hypothetical case, it makes sense. Suppose the candidate ahead got caught like Spitzer *after* getting all those votes. The party would like a way to overturn a bad, earlier decision and not run someone who was certain to lose.

Or, if they died.

There is an argument for the superdelegates, but mostly hypothetical, I think.

Weaver95: DamnYankees: Oh, I agree.

Where do you think her followers GET that message? Hillary is a control freak. Do you really believe she would allow her followers to hear a message she didn't agree with?

Followers? Not all of her voters are her "followers". My grandmother voted for Hillary, and she believes Hillary is her last chance to see an woman president. My grandmother is 87, and she's right, this is her last chance. Hillary didn't tell her to think that - just seems obvious.

I'm not saying its impossible that Hillary first put out this meme, but combined with the (1) lack of positive proof she did and (2) very obvious nature of the meme to any old person, I'm gonna hold back from blaming her now.

Now, it'd be nice if Hillary rejected it, but we all know she would never do that.

DamnYankees: and she believes Hillary is her last chance to see an woman president

its so sad that this time around your gramma has to choose between good president and woman president...

maybe someday we'll have a candidate that offers both, but it just ain't this one...

DamnYankees: big_pth: This primary is about 75% sure to destroy the Democratic party. The hardcore Hillary supporters would urge her to make an independent run and that would be the end of it all. I think at this point there is a good chance she would do it.

Would never happen. Hillary is entirely the product of a party. There's nothing remotely independent about her. She completely relies on connections and favors.

QFT, THIS, So on and soforth...

lolmadillo: DamnYankees: and she believes Hillary is her last chance to see an woman president

its so sad that this time around your gramma has to choose between good president and woman president...

maybe someday we'll have a candidate that offers both, but it just ain't this one...

Well, there's also no way my grandparents are voting for a black guy. They see Obama as an empty suit who is just in the race since he is getting all the dark people votes.

As crazy as this sounds, I still think she'll sue the party for having primary elections.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The Superdelegates were put in place for two reasons:
1. To settle a tie, or to deterine the winner of a three person race where no candidate has the clear majority

2. To prevent a completely un-electable candidate from winning the nomination

In today's world where candidates are all over the news cycle and the minorest of Dean-like slip ups can ruin a campaign, #2 isn't likely to happen.

Baring any of the afformentioned Dean-like slip ups, Obama will have the lead in pledged delegates, popular vote, and states won. He'll more than likely be the clear leader in every category expect for "States that Hillary determined to be important." He'll also probably still be leading in polls showing which candidate is likely to fair better against McCain. If that's the case then the Supers should do what they are supposed to do, and not go against the will of the people.

Case closed.

Also, is it just me, or is it becoming more and more obvious that despite Pelosi's claims of neutrality, she wants Obama to win?

Weaver95: DamnYankees: Weaver95: Hillary Clinton.

Has she ever said that herself? I don't recall it coming from her.

Not directly, but a lot of her people HAVE said as much. That's the mantra - Hillary is the 'last chance', she's the savior, it's preordained, she's the woman of the year, blah, blah, woof woof.

I would give Her a chance:


bowchikawowow...

Hung Like A Tic-Tac: Weaver95: DamnYankees: Weaver95: Hillary Clinton.

Has she ever said that herself? I don't recall it coming from her.

Not directly, but a lot of her people HAVE said as much. That's the mantra - Hillary is the 'last chance', she's the savior, it's preordained, she's the woman of the year, blah, blah, woof woof.

I would give Her a chance:


bowchikawowow...

Oy, no. Having heard her speak, no chance in hell. You can't be that boring a speaker and be elected President.

I heard Rendell on the radio today. He sounds like he's starting to soften his rhetoric about the race (uncommitted Governor that's happy all this will be in his state). I think this second public rebuke from Pelosi to Hillary has kind of doomed her. Pelosi is an un-pledged superdelegate and she brings some other supers with her.

If Hillary had kept her mouth shut about McCain being a more qualified candidate, she wouldn't be in this pickle.

I'm starting to wonder if she will make it through PA.

globalwarmingpraiser: Isn't overturning the result if it is bad the reason they set up the Superdelegates in the 80's

The superdelegate system was concocted to clinch nominations early for the party insider. In theory it is supposed to prevent brokered conventions or long drawn out nominating processes when a clear front-runner is hounded by someone who couldn't possibly win the nomination, but still hangs on for whatever reason (like what Hillary is doing now).

BTW, did the OBVIOUS tag asplode and 'interesting' had to take over or something?

Hung Like A Tic-Tac:

I would give Her a chance:


bowchikawowow...

Funny you should mention Sebelius.
Many consider her to be on Obama's short list for veep.

Janet Napolitano (p) Senator Obama could be her VP for 8 years then become POTUS.

curmudge: Janet Napolitano (p) Senator Obama could be her VP for 8 years then become POTUS.

She was Attorney General in AZ when I lived there. Always liked her. Didn't think she was interested in the VP slot. But Bill Richardson, from next door in NM, is.

DamnYankees: Well, there's also no way my grandparents are voting for a black guy

mmmmh mmmh racism, its like sexism but much more acceptable for old people...