Glare at them, Condi. Works every time.

Remind them of the oil deal you brokered in Iraq between Sunnis and Shiites. And all your other diplomatic successes.

I despise that woman.

Detente, motherfarker! It's the language of peace, do you speak it?

/too bad W. doesn't have a friggin' MoC

That sounds suspiciously like antisemitism to me. You can see how seriously the Israelis take these stuff by who they send to that maeeting with Condi. Or you could always face reality and accept that no one wants peace in that area.

Ok, to be fair its not really all the Israelis and Palestinians who have failed to work towards a solution. Its just those who are currently in positions of power and stand to profit from keeping things the way they are and the idiots that blindly follow them who have done their best to prevent peace.

"No one could have predicted that terrorists would use planes as guided missiles. Especially not me, who attended the G8 summit two months before 9/11 where the farking ITALIAN military set up anti-aircraft batteries to prevent just such an attack."

this story with the road map is soooooo looooooooooong, with so many twists and turns, linking it up here would crash the servers

pfft. heres the first part. ready?

An Uncertain Road Map (WaPo June 2002)
A Plan Without a Map (NYT June 2002)
• This one has the advantage at least of seeming to better reflect the president's own world view. He placed most of the onus on the Palestinians: The clear message was they shouldn't expect anything -- not a state, not a provisional state, not an Israeli withdrawal -- until they get rid of Yasser Arafat as their leader and clean up their collective act.
• Such a one-sided approach might be appropriate if Israel's government were committed to the two-state vision that Mr. Bush claimed as his own yesterday. After all, the president is right that Mr. Arafat has shown a willingness to use terrorism -- the unacceptable murder of innocent civilians -- to further political goals, and that such terror should not be rewarded. But Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has made clear that he sees a two-state solution many years distant at best. His government has shown no inclination to modify the settlement policy that makes an ultimate agreement ever more difficult.

------------
Arafat Wants No. 2 Man In the P.L.O. As the Premier (NYT March 2003)
-----


A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (April 2003 US Dept of State)
-----
U.S. Groups Seek To Cast Peace 'Map' As a Threat (Forward May 2003)

Bush's Maneuvers Bewilder Jerusalem and Activists (Forward June 2003

From determination to wimpiness (Haaretz)

Israel Seals Off Gaza After Brief Opening Meant to Ease Plight of Palestinian Workers (NYT May 2003)

Sharon's Refusal To Accept Plan Vexes Powell Trip; After Visit, Israel Seals Gaza Strip (WaPo May 2003 pg. A.12)
Abstract (Summary)

Secretary of State Colin L. Powell clashed with his Egyptian counterpart today over Israel's refusal to endorse a new U.S.- backed peace plan. Powell said it made "no difference" whether Israel declared that it accepted the document, but Egypt's foreign minister, Ahmed Maher, said embracing it was important, remarking that " 'accept' is not a dirty word."

Further complicating the picture during Powell's visit for talks with Israeli and Palestinian leaders, the Israeli military imposed the tightest crackdown on travel between Israel and the Gaza Strip since the current Palestinian uprising began in September 2000, closing Gaza's borders to everyone except diplomats and aid workers. Maher indicated the tightened closure undercut earlier gestures announced by Israel to ease Palestinian suffering that Powell had hailed as "very promising."

Powell met Sunday with the new Palestinian Authority prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, and [Ariel Sharon] and Abbas have agreed to their first meeting Friday. But Powell refused to meet with the Authority's president and longtime Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat. Maher noted that Arafat selected Abbas and said Egypt would continue to meet with him. "We continue to recognize him as the leader of the Palestinian people," he said.

B

No Discussion Of Settlements, Diplomats Say (Forward (May 2003)

American-Israeli Relations Strained Following Attack (Forward June 2003)

Bush Under Fire in Congress for Criticizing Israel (NYT June 2003)

Bush's Shift on Israel Was Swift (WaPo June 2003)

If she has a 'moment of clarity', why is she still so black? Something doesn't add up here.

link doesnt work for the WaPo article above - putting it in small

Secretary of State Colin L. Powell clashed with his Egyptian counterpart today over Israel's refusal to endorse a new U.S.- backed peace plan. Powell said it made "no difference" whether Israel declared that it accepted the document, but Egypt's foreign minister, Ahmed Maher, said embracing it was important, remarking that " 'accept' is not a dirty word."

Further complicating the picture during Powell's visit for talks with Israeli and Palestinian leaders, the Israeli military imposed the tightest crackdown on travel between Israel and the Gaza Strip since the current Palestinian uprising began in September 2000, closing Gaza's borders to everyone except diplomats and aid workers. Maher indicated the tightened closure undercut earlier gestures announced by Israel to ease Palestinian suffering that Powell had hailed as "very promising."

At the same time -- and adding to the impression that Powell's tour has not eased tensions -- three Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip, including a farm worker who Palestinian news reports said was tilling a field near an army observation post in Khan Yunis in southern Gaza.

Israel's position on the peace plan, known as the "road map," has stirred anger in the Arab world and has become a major point of contention during Powell's tour of the region. Palestinian officials have accepted the road map, and they complained that Israel's crackdown in Gaza, which also barred journalists, belied the symbolism of any of the gestures announced earlier.

"The Israeli side did not use the word 'accept,' " Powell told reporters after meeting here with Egypt's president, Hosni Mubarak. "It makes no difference whether you have a word 'accept' or not have a word 'accept.' " Instead, he argued, "rather than focus on that particular issue, I am focusing on . . . the steps that we can take."

But Maher, standing next to Powell, retorted, "It seems to me a little strange that if you are willing to do things, you are not ready to say you are willing to do that. The word 'accept' is not a dirty word. I think it will be a very useful word."

The document was the product of months of negotiations involving the United States, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations, which are committed to its implementation. So Powell has given it support, while at the same time appearing content to let it stay in the background as he pushes for confidence-building steps.

Powell's visit to Egypt -- to be followed by trips to Jordan and Saudi Arabia -- is designed to drum up Arab support for the plan. All three nations have been involved in helping to build a Palestinian government; Egypt and Jordan are also helping to restructure Palestinian security forces.

The road map is a three-stage plan that envisions the creation of a Palestinian state after a series of reciprocal steps. But Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who will meet with President Bush in Washington on May 20, has raised more than a dozen problems with it.

"It's very unfortunate that we begin the process this way," said Saeb Erekat, chief negotiator for the Palestinian Authority. "There is a message that Sharon is sending to everyone: 'We will not accept the road map, and secondly, it's our road map, it's not Americans' road map.' "

Powell met Sunday with the new Palestinian Authority prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, and Sharon and Abbas have agreed to their first meeting Friday. But Powell refused to meet with the Authority's president and longtime Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat. Maher noted that Arafat selected Abbas and said Egypt would continue to meet with him. "We continue to recognize him as the leader of the Palestinian people," he said.

Maher dismissed Israel's announcement, made in the wake of Powell's visit, that it would release a few dozen prisoners, provide more work permits and take some other measures to ease the military crackdown. The steps "would have been a good indication had they not been accompanied by actions on the ground that certainly go contrary to a desire to solve the problem of peace and tensions," he said, in apparent reference to the Gaza closure.

A senior State Department official traveling with Powell defended the secretary's efforts, asserting that the Israeli actions demonstrated he was making progress. "They start to address issues the Palestinians raise constantly with us," he said. "By no means do they solve this. The important thing right now is to get people to do things."

The official declined to discuss the latest crackdown, saying, "I don't think we know enough about the Gaza situation." The Gaza closure spurred a complaint from the Foreign Press Association in Jerusalem. "The fact that the restrictions that have been suddenly imposed are open-ended and that no allowance whatsoever has been made for journalists' entry and exit is extremely disturbing and suggests an utter disregard for basic press freedoms," it said.

Palestinian officials also dismissed Israel's decision to release 180 of the more than 5,000 Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails as a hollow gesture. Israelis released 63 prisoners on Sunday and another 35 today, about half of the promised number, according to a Defense Ministry spokeswoman.

Most of those released today were Palestinian laborers arrested in Israel without work permits, according to Palestinian journalists who met the prisoners when they were dropped at an isolated border crossing with Israel near the southern end of the West Bank.

Headline: Condoleeza Rice has what alcoholics refer to as a 'moment of clarity,' states that both the Israelis and the Palestinians aren't doing enough to meet their obligations under the 2003 US road map for Mid East peace

Uh oh, she's about to get the Jimmy Carter treatment!

Israel-US rift emerges over security fence issue (JPost June 2003)

PA (Palestinian Authority) paper makes racist, sexist remarks about Condoleeza Rice (JPost June 2003)

Sharon rejects Bush's call to take down 'security' fence (Independent July 2003)
• Mr Sharon met Mr Bush just four days after the President - with Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Prime Minister standing beside him - called the fence (more properly a wall) a "problem" that did not help the road-map peace plan being pushed by the United States and other big powers for an overall Middle East settlement by the end of 2005.

Israel to Continue Building Security Fence Criticized by Bush (NYT July 2003)

U.S. May Reduce Aid Plan to Get Israel to Halt Barrier (NYT Aug 2003)

Bush Eases Pressure on Both Sides Over Peace Plan (Forward Aug 2003)
• Seeking to prevent the unraveling of its so-called "road map" to Israeli-Palestinian peace, the Bush administration is scaling back its demands on each side in hopes of making it easier for each of them to comply. The apparent aim is to ease domestic political pressures on the leaders, as well as to defuse charges from each side that the other side is failing to comply.

U.S. Cutting Loan Guarantees To Oppose Israeli Settlements (NYT Sept 2003)
• The action was almost totally symbolic. It came on the same day that Israel sold $1.6 billion of bonds on Wall Street, all backed by a guarantee of repayment by the United States government under legislation passed last spring that provides Israel with up to $3 billion in loan guarantees annually for three years.

It is the first such move the administration has taken against Israel.

U.S. confirms fence prompted loan cuts (Haaretz 11/27/03¹)
• it was agreed that the United States will trim $289.5 million from the $3 billion in guarantees granted to Israel this year. Washington has granted Israel a total of $9 billion in guarantees over three years.

"The fact is they [the United States] aren't putting any political pressure on us to do anything on the substantive issues of the political process," Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told Army Radio yesterday.
------

I have a question: Does anybody care what Condi thinks?

Is she actually scolding the Israel and the Palestinians? What a joke that is. The US is in no position to scold other governments for not playing nice.

End of her term and suddenly she wants peace?
2little2late!

Come on. We've got all those nukes just sitting around not killing people. Not only could we let them do what they were designed to do, but we'd save billions by not having to maintain them. We'd also save billions by not having to keep arming Israel, and trillions by not having to occupy various other nations.
The ensuing oil shortage would help spur new alternative energy technologies, plus all the dust that's launched into the atmosphere would help with global warming.
We could also end all war as we know it. Sure, the world knows we have the balls to actually use nukes, so they won't start a full out war with us. But once they realize we'll use them to stop other people from fighting nobody will so much as menacingly glare at each other.

The funniest thing about Condi Rice?

In 2003, George W. Bush announced that he was naming her the Iraq "czar" (this is while she was Nat'l Security Advisor) and that she was assuming control over all Iraqi construction and government formation. This followed the reported failures and slow pace of getting the Iraqi infrastructure back on-line. Basically his announcement was publicly timed to counter all the bad press the US effort was getting and the disclosure of all the corruption and missing money. She was to have control and authority over the process.

A year or so later, Bush goes on TV and makes an announcement. Things were not going well in Iraq in terms of re-building and construction contracts, so he was putting Condi Rice in charge!

I guess the Whitehouse was too dumb to realize that they had already made this announcement previously. What's even worse? It appears that the vast majority of the media and the public was too dumb as I have seen but a few discussions of this topic over the ensuing years.

Condi Rice is as incompetent as Don Rumsfield she just has a better PR team.

We convinced Abu Mazen, a responsible and peaceful Palestinian leader, to get into a civil war with HAMAS. But are we providing him the kind of support that he needs to win that fight? No.

We quietly chide Israel on the building of settlements. But are we demanding, and backing up with action our demands, that they be removed, or at the very least not built anew? No.

By the shape of our own behavior, I'm forced to conclude that we don't really want a resolution.

Cut off funding to Israel, cut off funding to the Palestinians, embargo both economies. They'll come to the table when charity dries up.

mrexcess: Abu Mazen, a responsible and peaceful Palestinian leader

Bahahahaha.. starting with a joke, are we ?
The only difference between him and Arafat is the much better suit.

TappingTheVein: I doubt any Palestinian leader who didn't offer up the territories to Israel would be acceptable to some Israelis.

You could help to change that perception of mine by explaining what you'd like him to be doing that he isn't.

Can somebody list three Condoleeza Rice accomplishments for me?

She may simply be too subtle for me, but I can't think of a damn thing that got better because she worked with it.

mrexcess: TappingTheVein: I doubt any Palestinian leader who didn't offer up the territories to Israel would be acceptable to some Israelis.

You could help to change that perception of mine by explaining what you'd like him to be doing that he isn't.

A good start would be to have his own organization stop carrying out terrorist attacks and suicide bombings, praising mass murderers, preaching and educating kids about the destruction of Israel etc and so on. the usual stuff.

TappingTheVein
A good start would be to have his own organization stop carrying out terrorist attacks and suicide bombings

Shenanigans. Cite?

praising mass murderers

I can find instances of Israeli government officials doing the same thing. So? Abu Mazen can't control what everyone in the territories says or thinks.

preaching and educating kids about the destruction of Israel

In the midst of a 40 year long invasion, that is the very definition of getting the cart before the horse.

mrexcess: Shenanigans. Cite?

As if i needed more evidence about your ignorance regarding this conflict..
Fatah's 'Armed Wing' Claims responsibility for suicide bombing.

I can find instances of Israeli government officials doing the same thing. So?

Really ? which ones ? and are they the actual leaders of this country like Abbas ? in other words: bullshiat. Not even close to the situation with Fatah, as much as you try to justify their behavior.

n the midst of a 40 year long invasion, that is the very definition of getting the cart before the horse.

Again total bullshiat. Lame attempt to justify educating children that jews are the sons of apes and pigs and Israel shouldn't exist.

mrexcess: I can find instances of Israeli government officials doing the same thing. So? Abu Mazen can't control what everyone in the territories says or thinks.

Didn't notice this one. It's not what everyone else thinks, it's his own official party newspaper. Do you want cite for this one as well ?

TappingTheVein: From your link...

Three groups, including Fatah's armed wing, the Al-Aqsa Brigades, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine's (PFLP) armed wing, the Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades, and a new group calling themselves the United Resistance Brigades, claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

To me, this has the sound of someone in Fatah's militant wing wanting to take credit, appear relevant, and possibly attempt to bridge the divide (at least in terms of PR) between themselves and HAMAS. This is domestic politics at play, and it is worrisome indeed, but I don't read this as reason to withhold support from Abu Mazen, who is as close to a dove as you'll find anywhere in that region. Rather, just the opposite -- as I said, Abu Mazen is losing this one. The hawks on both sides have a free reign, and now is the time to stop this before it gets a lot worse.

and are they the actual leaders of this country like Abbas?

You want Abbas to condemn the martyrs? Any more laughably unreasonable and in the end inconsequential requests to make of the guy? He could very well feel that way, but the reality is that saying something that divisive and politically incorrect at a time like this would be the end of his political career if not his life.

It would have been "nice" if FDR would have come out and condemned the prevalent anti-Japanese and anti-German bigotry during WW2, too.

Lame attempt to justify educating children that jews are the sons of apes and pigs and Israel shouldn't exist.

There's no justification for it, wartime propaganda is nasty and destructive and worthy of utmost condemnation. But it is also the reality, and the longer the conflict the worse it gets.

All the more reason to support people like Abu Mazen who are trying to move forward to peace.

TappingTheVein: This is building to a conflagration that stands a chance of consuming not just the entire region, but the majority of the globe. I don't know how to be any more frank. The occupation has to end, so that the internal climate of the territories is such that the terrorism can be made to end.

The forces you hawks are playing with, on both sides of this conflict, are greater than you realize.

/even worse...
//maybe they aren't

mrexcess: To me, this has the sound of someone in Fatah's militant wing wanting bla bla..

To me it looks like you were caught with your pants down again.

Abu Mazen, who is as close to a dove as you'll find anywhere in that region

That's true. Comparing him to Hamas is like comparing two piles of shiat but but one is slightly more attractive.

You want Abbas to condemn the martyrs?

"Martyrs" ? wht not "Holy Shahids" ? "brave mujahedeen" ? how about murderous zealots ?
Bottom line: his organization supports and carries out terrorist attacks again Israel. His organization sees Israel in its entirely as occupation, just like Hamas. In other words as i said: like Arafat but in a better suit.

wartime propaganda is nasty and destructive and worthy of utmost condemnation.

Wartime propaganda ? this is their official study curriculum. A way of life is a 'wartime propaganda' ? then why does it predate the war itself ?

But it is also the reality, and the longer the conflict the worse it gets.

At least we agree on something: it's in reality.

All the more reason to support people like Abu Mazen who are trying to move forward to peace.

You already told that joke.

mrexcess: This is building to a conflagration that stands a chance of consuming not just the entire region, but the majority of the globe.

Yes, fundamentalist Islam will at some point be a more dangerous problem for the entire world. Who do you think funds and truly leads the palestinian terrorist organizations ?

The occupation has to end, so that the internal climate of the territories is such that the terrorism can be made to end.

Too bad that for the palestinians 'the occupation' = 'All of Israel'.

So Bush's 2003 road map for Mid East peace is having problems?

I find it hard to believe that a plan devised by Bush would stumble during implementation.

Clearly, this is Clinton's fault.

TappingTheVein
Too bad that for the palestinians 'the occupation' = 'All of Israel'.

Get a brain, moran.

Yeah, that's all I'm going to say. History has proven that I'm pretty much right on everything; when you disagree with me, you are wrong, so I'm not even going to bother trying to convince people anymore. Just the insults. You are wrong because you are dumb.

TappingTheVein
To me it looks like you were caught with your pants down again.

A symptom of a larger problem, I'd suggest.

That's true. Comparing him to Hamas is like comparing two piles of shiat but but one is slightly more attractive.

He's the most peace-oriented leader of either the Palestinian or Israeli governments since an Israeli extremist capped PM Rabin.

"Martyrs" ? wht not "Holy Shahids" ? "brave mujahedeen" ? how about murderous zealots ?

Let's settle on "desperate fools", shall we?

Wartime propaganda ? this is their official study curriculum.

One doesn't preclude the other!

A way of life is a 'wartime propaganda' ?

The occupation of the territories has been on-going for more than four decades. Yes, I would say that it should be no surprise to find that wartime propaganda is a way of life there.

Yes, fundamentalist Islam will at some point be a more dangerous problem for the entire world.

You seem to be attributing the rise of fundamentalist Islam to the activities in the territories, or at least calling it a large factor. Is that correct?

Who do you think funds and truly leads the palestinian terrorist organizations ?

I don't think there's anything close to one simple answer to that question.

Too bad that for the palestinians 'the occupation' = 'All of Israel'.

That's just a blatant lie. The majority of Palestinians support a two-state solution.

RanDomino: Get a brain, moran.

Yeah, that's all I'm going to say

of course you do, when facts contradict your delusions.

History has proven that I'm pretty much right on everything

And i thought mrexcess had a knack for comedy.

when you disagree with me, you are wrong

Comedy gold, Gentlemen.
So i'll leave you with Fatah's own leader and his official embelm, which can't be mistaken if you are familiar with what Israel looks like.

mrexcess: A symptom of a larger problem, I'd suggest.

Why not just apologize and admit that you were wrong ? why are you squirming ? you didn't contradict or proved me wrong so far, only tried to find creative excuses for the palestinians' behavior.

He's the most peace-oriented leader of either the Palestinian or Israeli governments since an Israeli extremist capped PM Rabin.

Again, as i said: this is not saying much. And don't compare him to the israeli government, the one elected on a promise to leave the West Bank just like Gaza.

Let's settle on "desperate fools", shall we?

Again you were wrong and you try to bring excuses for these people. Again: his organization supports and carries out terrorist attacks again Israel. His organization sees Israel in its entirely as occupation, just like Hamas. You ignore this part for some reason.

One doesn't preclude the other!

It's a way of life, not "wartime propaganda". It exists in other arab/muslim countries who are not in war with Israel.

The occupation of the territories has been on-going for more than four decades. Yes, I would say that it should be no surprise to find that wartime propaganda is a way of life there.

You didn't answer my question about it predating the war. When those in the West Bank who now call themselves palestinians were Jordanians.

You seem to be attributing the rise of fundamentalist Islam to the activities in the territories, or at least calling it a large factor. Is that correct?

No, of course not.

I don't think there's anything close to one simple answer to that question.

yes there is, again proving your ignorance. Iran, Syria.

That's just a blatant lie. The majority of Palestinians support a two-state solution.

Too bad your "majority of Palestinians" d not run things over there. As Arafat himself thought: it would be a temporary solution until they claim all of Israel. He called it 'Conquest by Stages'.

Yeah, you know what? Good for them. Really, best of luck... because that's all they've got. Do you really, honestly think that any rank-and-file Palestinians really give a shiat if Israel is destroyed? They want schools and hospitals, almost as if they're human beings or something.

They don't want it and they will never succeed even if they do, so it's just a shiatty excuse for Israel to build settlements without being criticized.

TappingTheVein: who now call themselves palestinians were Jordanians.

Briefly...
Why did Palestinian Nationalism decline after first Arab-Israeli War in 1948, and why did it re-emerge after the 1967 War?

Of course, Immigration and land displacement was an issue all they way back to when the ottomans curbed Jewish Immigration because.. well. lemme link it

ZIONIST MOVEMENT AIMED AT.; Explanation by Turkey of Restrictions Upon Travelers in Palestine.
December 31, 1898,

PALESTINE CLOSED TO JEWS.; Authorities There Ordered to Prevent Landing of Immigrants.
September 10, 1898

Then this which will probably bring us to this....

This can go on and on... How about this. I like cookies. Chocolate chocolate chip, with a cold glass of skim milk. Mmmmm. Do you like cookies too?

RanDomino: They don't want it and they will never succeed even if they do, so it's just a shiatty excuse for Israel to build settlements without being criticized.

Son, i've been to Gaza and the West Bank. Talked with many arabs there. I know for a fact that many of them want nothing more than to live in peace, work and raise their kids.

But as long as the palestinians are pawns of Iran and Syria and jihadist islamic terrorists like Hamas or terrorists like Fatah control their lives, nothing will change.

I also suggest staring at Fatah's official emblem a few posts earlier. Educate yourself.

How good does this look? Seriously.

Party Boy: This can go on and on... How about this. I like cookies. Chocolate chocolate chip, with a cold glass of skim milk. Mmmmm. Do you like cookies too?

As a matter of fact, yes i do.

TappingTheVein: Party Boy: This can go on and on... How about this. I like cookies. Chocolate chocolate chip, with a cold glass of skim milk. Mmmmm. Do you like cookies too?

As a matter of fact, yes i do.

I like them a little gooey in the center. You know, enough crust to get the milk, but kind of chewy on the inside.




It doesnt get any better than that.

/off to the store.

If Mexico started lobbing missiles at Brownsville malls everyday, claimed Brownsville has no right to exist, and send thugs into their stores to blow Brownsville mommies and their babies up, relations between the two may be a little strained.

The Pals could get anything and everything they wanted by simply stop using terrorism as a political tool. That might have worked the last 8000 years for them, but not anymore.

Israel allows Palestinians to work in Israel. Israel's hospitals treat Palestinians. The same can't be said of Palestinians. In fact, Israel does not exist in Palestinian schoolbooks. Until the Pals quit breeding hate and electing terrorist groups to run their country, this situation will never change.

Party Boy: It doesnt get any better than that.

How about a nice jewish girl:

You can't tell from this photo, but her knees are really sharp.

TappingTheVein
I also suggest staring at Fatah's official emblem a few posts earlier.

who... the fark... is going to join Fatah or Hamas... if there's no occupation? (beside a few crazy idiots who will probably kill themselves trying to make bombs in their basements)

TappingTheVein: Party Boy: It doesnt get any better than that.

How about a nice jewish girl:

Girlfriend wouldnt like that. How about a nice bowl of matzo?

Farkomatic: ...
Analogues (+metaphor, metonym, synecdoche) are weak forms of argument. You are basically forced to stick with the particulars of that time and place. Then, people will come along and present new lines of evidence/inquiry. ... you know, to make sure that 'half' the story isn't being told.

(seriously going to make cookies now)

RanDomino: who... the fark... is going to join Fatah or Hamas... if there's no occupation?

I remember everyone claimed that things will be much better when there will be no occupation in Gaza. So much for that clusterfark.

Oh boo hoo, they're throwing a few missiles. How many people have they killed? A dozen? If the standard is going to be "exactly zero deaths", that's just unrealistic. Things are much better (for Israelis, at least) after the Gaza pullout, unless you're a giant wuss.

That past two Israeli leaders who worked for real change and resolution either were assassinated or wound up a vegetable. I don't envy anyone having to broker those deals. Unless Jordan and Saudi Arabia want to carve off some land and give it to the Palestinians along with massive funding, I don't see any resolution. So, yeah, that'll never happen.

The whole problem I see with that region is jobs and an economy with little production outside of oil. Easy to fight and bomb when you are making more then working a falafel stand. They should come out with a Hamas fashion line and make it cool with the MTV set. It'll give a whole new meaning to East Bank and West Bank rivalries. Air drop cases of Cristal, Gold-plated Mercedes , and nominate the Rza as Special Envoy to the Middle East.

My work is done here.

RanDomino: Oh boo hoo, they're throwing a few missiles. How many people have they killed? A dozen? If the standard is going to be "exactly zero deaths", that's just unrealistic.

It never ceases to amaze me that people still use this retarded argument. There are almost no deaths because the moment the rockets/mortar shells are in the air the alarm systems kick in and everyone enters their bomb shelters. Thats why.

A few missiles ? go count the thousands, you farking idiot.

Things are much better (for Israelis, at least) after the Gaza pullout, unless you're a giant wuss.

The people living in Ashkelon, Sderot, Shaar Hanegev etc.. would like to have a word with you.

Seriously, just let it go. The only thing proven by you so far is your own staggering ignorance.