I can't stand Glenn Beck.
It's a shame he's not wrong here.

/Michigander here

frankly, i think florida should have all voting rights revoked for at least the next 20 years as punishment for this and 2000.

/floridian here

How is punishing a state party commission a statement on *personal* responsibility?

Aaaaaaand even a broken clock - a fat, hemorrhoid-ridden, loudmouthed, clay-eating taintstain of a clock - can be right twice a day.

fatimcgee: I can't stand Glenn Beck.
It's a shame he's not wrong here.

/Michigander here

I agree with you on both points. However, I wonder if Beck would agree with the following: "What would it say about personal responsibility in this country if we allow the the president to avoid any accountability or even investigation of his likely violation of FISA."

miseducated: Aaaaaaand even a broken clock - a fat, hemorrhoid-ridden, loudmouthed, clay-eating taintstain of a clock - can be right twice a day.

Quit holding it in dude... tell us how you really feel.

/_{OOOOOO... the chick with the nicest ass in my office just went by}

It hurts when people like this are right.

It's like when Ann Coulter said, "Calling Harriet Myers the best woman for the Supreme Court is an insult to all women".

It really, really hurt that I had to agree with her.

Yeah, I gotta agree with Beck. Florida and Michigan have to sit this one out. It's the punishment for their actions that they knew about ahead of time.

/Floridian

What's really funny is they are going to dick around and there won't be time to re-vote. Then those current delegates will get shoved right up Howard Deans ass like a red hot poker.

Denver is going to be a great spectacle to behold.

I'm still trying to figure out how the state has any say in the selection of the Democratic and Republican party nominees. The Florida legislature selected the primary date with full knowledge that it violated both party rules (bunch of absolute troglodite morans!). They should leave the nomination process to the parties.

Bah!

burndtdan: frankly, i think florida should have all voting rights revoked at least the next 20 years as punishment for this and 2000 having their own Fark tag.

FYP

Even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then.

Does anyone know about Edwards's delegates? Do they remain locked out or can Edwards delegate his delegates?

He hasn't sided yet..coinky dink?

How much do you want to bet Beck flip-flops when it gets pointed out to him that the two campaigns will be spending money in those states that would have otherwise been used in the general election against McCain? He'll think it's the greatest development of all time.

This has GOT to be the worst editorial I'll read today. This dipstick is NOT right - at ALL!!! In the first place, Congress only approved the war after Shrub scrubbed the intelligence that would've warned 'em not to. Secondly, the excess spending hasn't been from Congress... It's been Georgie's war.

Finally, whose rules did Michigan violate? The Democratic party's? Exactly when did political parties get to tell states how/when/why to do ANYthing?!? We held our election, and the DNC oughta man up and live with it.

OlafTheBent:
/OOOOOO... the chick with the nicest ass in my office just went by

Pics or it didn't happen.

The voters didn't break the rules, the people who re-scheduled the primary did. If there was a good way to punish one without the other I'd be all for it.

milk_plus: The voters didn't break the rules, the people who re-scheduled the primary did. If there was a good way to punish one without the other I'd be all for it.

This. Punishing FL and MI may have been necessary, but its sort of the opposite of personal responsibility. The voters being punished didn't do anything wrong.

Gary PDX Does anyone know about Edwards's delegates? Do they remain locked out or can Edwards delegate his delegates?

Actually, none of the delegates are "locked". Ay delegate can vote for any candidate. The state primaries/caucauses are set up to guarantee that only the strongest Obama or Clinton delegates are elected as delegates, so the llikelihood of them defecting is small.

Edwards can recommend that his 23 delegates vote for whomever, but they are free to vote their own minds.

Mohawk742: Finally, whose rules did Michigan violate? The Democratic party's? Exactly when did political parties get to tell states how/when/why to do ANYthing?!? We held our election, and the DNC oughta man up and live with it.

err...

1) political parties get to tell the state chapter of that party what to do in regards to internal party processes any time it wants to
2) you didn't really hold your election, as there was only one real candidate on the ballot. if that's holding an election, we might as well just let vladmir putin start running things, he knows that system well.

Mohawk742: Finally, whose rules did Michigan violate? The Democratic party's? Exactly when did political parties get to tell states how/when/why to do ANYthing?!? We held our election, and the DNC oughta man up and live with it.

Right there! Yeah, that's the attitude that's the problem. Good job.

Conman: Edwards can recommend that his 23 delegates vote for whomever, but they are free to vote their own minds.

Isn't it 26 delegates?

DamnYankees: This. Punishing FL and MI may have been necessary, but its sort of the opposite of personal responsibility. The voters being punished didn't do anything wrong.

The voters voted in idiots at the state House of Representative level who voted in favor of moving the primaries forward with the knowledge that they could be punished.

Conman: Gary PDX Does anyone know about Edwards's delegates? Do they remain locked out or can Edwards delegate his delegates?

Actually, none of the delegates are "locked". Ay delegate can vote for any candidate. The state primaries/caucauses are set up to guarantee that only the strongest Obama or Clinton delegates are elected as delegates, so the llikelihood of them defecting is small.

Edwards can recommend that his 23 delegates vote for whomever, but they are free to vote their own minds.

Oh I see..that's interesting.

miseducated: Aaaaaaand even a broken clock - a fat, hemorrhoid-ridden, loudmouthed, clay-eating taintstain of a clock - can be right twice a day.

Woohoo, I'm Googling the news right now for the second one. By this time tomorrow, I will complete a Fark trifecta!

Unright: DamnYankees: This. Punishing FL and MI may have been necessary, but its sort of the opposite of personal responsibility. The voters being punished didn't do anything wrong.

The voters voted in idiots at the state House of Representative level who voted in favor of moving the primaries forward with the knowledge that they could be punished.

This may be a legal fiction, but its totally untrue. And you know that. If this was a referendum, like CA does, you'd have a point, but no one gets elected to office on this platform.

Mohawk742: Finally, whose rules did Michigan violate? The Democratic party's? Exactly when did political parties get to tell states how/when/why to do ANYthing?!? We held our election, and the DNC oughta man up and live with it.

Thank you for your ignorant and un-informed opinion. The National Democratic party gets to tell the state parties what they can and cannot do. The Michigan Democratic Party decided to do what they wanted, even though they were warned they would lose delegates.

And Michigan did not hold an election, they held a pointless beauty contest. Don't you all feel proud?

DamnYankees: This may be a legal fiction, but its totally untrue. And you know that. If this was a referendum, like CA does, you'd have a point, but no one gets elected to office on this platform.

Yeah, I know. I'm being pretty unfair. But back when the state voted to move up it's primaries despite the DNC stating that if they did then their delegates wouldn't be seated, I predicted that we'd be in some sort of similar situation like the one that we are in now.

If the voters had paid attention to the news and wrote their representatives like I had, there's a chance we might not be in this mess. Responsibility is recognizing potential problems, not whining about the results of inaction.

Florida and Michigan temporarily losing their delegates for one election cycle is not the end of the world.

DamnYankees: This may be a legal fiction, but its totally untrue. And you know that. If this was a referendum, like CA does, you'd have a point, but no one gets elected to office on this platform.

I don't know... in a democracy the people get the government that they deserve. The people of Michigan and Florida should hold a "throw the bums out" party at the state level this November if they are truly displeased with what happened.

Code_Archeologist: I don't know... in a democracy the people get the government that they deserve. The people of Michigan and Florida should hold a "throw the bums out" party at the state level this November if they are truly displeased with what happened.

If voter memory lasts that long....

Beck is a douchebag. End of thread.

Wait, Glenn Beck is right about something? Surely this is one of the signs of the apocalypse.

Conman: I'm still trying to figure out how the state has any say in the selection of the Democratic and Republican party nominees. The Florida legislature selected the primary date with full knowledge that it violated both party rules (bunch of absolute troglodite morans!). They should leave the nomination process to the parties.

Bah!

I guess it's because the state pays for the primary. Of course, I have no idea why the state pays for the primaries and not the individual parties.

GaryPDX: Denver is going to be a great spectacle to behold.

I'm from Michigan. I voted "uncommitted" in the original primary. (it was a vote for Obama, but since he wasn't on the ballot and we were told that writing him in wouldn't be counted, I voted uncommitted).

We, the people of Michigan, were not given a choice about moving the dates. The state government decided to do that and didn't ask us shiat about what we thought on the subject. In fact, there were many people saying, "Hey! What the hell are you people doing?!"... but they did it anyways and now we're in the position we're in.

There was some talk amongst some of my more politically active friends that this was a deliberate move by Jennifer Granholm (the governor of Michigan) because she thought it would benefit Hillary Clinton and would like to see Hillary win (because she's a woman was the general consensus). But there isn't any proof to say that is the case, just a theory I've heard more than once now.

As for a do-over vote here in Michigan... that could open up a whole can of worms... See... here in Michigan we don't register our party affiliation when we register to vote. So people are basically what they say they are without any kind of official check to say if they're Democratic or Republican.

From what I've been hearing, the same was true in the Texas primary and loads of Republicans turned out to vote for Hillary Clinton because they knew McCain's race was locked up so why not try to get the person that their candidate has an alright chance of beating? That skewed the results in Texas... Granted, Obama still walked away from the whole thing with more delegates... but a similar thing could happen here in Michigan.

If we do a do over, every Republican in the state (who already voted or not) can then vote in the 'Do-Over' vote and skew the results. The only way it wouldn't have a big impact is if Obama won the state by a HUGE margin (which is not only possible, but likely since Clinton has been suggesting that we just count the first one as a win for her). Granted, they could have skewed the vote before, but they had a vested interest in voting in the Republican portion of the primary and with a re-vote or do-over, they wouldn't as their nominee is already chosen.


Mohawk742: Exactly when did political parties get to tell states how/when/why to do ANYthing?!?

Well... the primary is more of a courtesy to us than anything else. Any political party can choose their candidate without any input from any state. The ability to vote in and participate in the nomination process is a privilege, not a right. That's why they can say if our delegates can be seated or not. We did not hold an election, we held a primary to try and split delegates. I know this stuff is a little confusing sometimes, but the dipshiat who wrote this article is at the very least, partially correct.

...

I would like to see a re-vote if there was a way to ensure it was fairly conducted. But I don't see how that can be done at this point (without serious risk to vote skewing).

So I suggest one of two options (equally lame and equally fair):

1. No re-vote... Don't seat the delegates... nobody gets anything from Michigan except whatever superdelegates that we may have deciding who they will vote for.

2. A 50/50 split of delegates to Obama and Clinton. Right down the middle... No net gain for either candidate. The regular delegates are seated and the superdelegates from Michigan decide on their own who they want.

If anyone has another idea on how we could have this be fair and seat delegates, I'd like to hear it, but I've been unable to come up with a fair way to do it beyond what I've suggested already.

Beck is wrong. DamnYankees is right.

"What would it say about personal responsibility in this country if we allow the two states that broke all the rules to end up having the biggest say of all?"

I'd say, is it Friday already?

It's their party, they can do what they want IMO.

sick freak

Thank GOD! Finally people are mad at a state other than Ohio. Yes, we really did rig the elections and we can travel backwards in time too.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

When was the last time anyone in this country cared about personal responsibility? Especially the Democrats?

DamnYankees: How is punishing a state party commission a statement on *personal* responsibility?

This is what I was wondering. The individual voters didn't really have much of anything to do with this nonsense.

/Yay collectivism!

JohnnyC: There was some talk amongst some of my more politically active friends that this was a deliberate move by Jennifer Granholm (the governor of Michigan) because she thought it would benefit Hillary Clinton and would like to see Hillary win (because she's a woman was the general consensus). But there isn't any proof to say that is the case, just a theory I've heard more than once now.


Just a theory? This should be completely obvious to every thinking person. It's the same reason Charlie Crist is suddenly so adamant that the Democrats seat Florida delegates also.

My biggest complaint is that if it was to break a tie and make things clearer it would be one thing.

But it will mostly likely make things less clearer, not more.

Who cares....

As a Floridian I am already accustomed to having my vote thrown out.

I hate Glenn Beck, but he's right in this case.

FightDirector: OlafTheBent:
/OOOOOO... the chick with the nicest ass in my office just went by

Pics or it didn't happen.

I second the motion!

Why don't we just use this as the final excuse to kick them out of the union?

If those states end up mattering the democratic party might as well just sit the next 8-10 presidential elections out

Everyone knows the Socialist-Democrat Party doesn't care in the slightest about personal responsibility. You needed an op-ed to point out the glaringly obvious?

DamnYankees:
This. Punishing FL and MI may have been necessary, but its sort of the opposite of personal responsibility. The voters being punished didn't do anything wrong.

So much for "..of the people, by the people, for the people.."