McCain is a Republican.

That means he could raise the dead, heal the sick, and spread love and peace throughout the world and the AFL-CIO would still back his opponent.

Every time I read "AFL-CIO" I wonder what the head of IT for the Aussie Rules is up to now. Can't help it.

albo: McCain is a Republican.

That means he could raise the dead, heal the sick, and spread love and peace throughout the world and the AFL-CIO would still back his opponent.


yeah...most groups tend to not support people/groups that would do away with you if givin half a chance

albo: McCain is a Republican.

That means he could raise the dead, heal the sick, and spread love and peace throughout the world and the AFL-CIO would still back his opponent.

When a Republican comes close to doing any of those things, we'll come back and check the veracity of your claim.

Except the raising the dead part. We won't speak of the unfortunate events at 10,000 Shadows Island. Poor, poor Jack Kemp.

lol, unions

nashBridges: How are they still relevant?

I know! How can an organization with ten million members possibly think it matters?

/you're stupid

albo: That means he could raise the dead, heal the sick, and spread love and peace throughout the world and the AFL-CIO would still back his opponent.

I, too, would like to see this theory put to the test. If only the Republicans would do any or all of those things.

puffy999: albo: That means he could raise the dead, heal the sick, and spread love and peace throughout the world and the AFL-CIO would still back his opponent.

I, too, would like to see this theory put to the test. If only the Republicans would do any or all of those things.

Supply Side Jesus would like to have a word with you.

nashBridges: 10 million out of a worst case scenario: 100 million voters. If they are 10% of active voters they have 10 million, which is optimistic.

I have no idea what this means.


Grocery store clerks might actually not like to be members of the union if they had the choice. It's telling that their union doesn't offer that choice from the point of hiring. You either join the union or don't get a job. I wonder what most people choose.

Nobody forces anybody to join a union. If you don't want to join the grocery clerks' union, don't be a grocery clerk.

I wonder how many politicians are owned by unions compared to how many are owned by management.

AnotherDisillusionedCollegeStudent: I wonder how many politicians are owned by unions compared to how many are owned by management.

So many more, duh! Why do you think politicans do so much to help blue-collar working folks while managers and executives have to struggle to make ends meet? It's just not right, I tells ya.

His plan would make employer-provided health benefits part of taxable income, essentially creating a new tax for working families. It undermines existing employer-based health care and pushes workers into the private market to fight big insurance companies on their own.

I'm not sure I see what's wrong with this. Do people without benefits get tax deductions on the money the shell out for healthcare? (Maybe they do, I don't know) If not, this seems like the equivalent of tax-free income that only people with benefits enjoy. Same for the second point, what about people without benefits? Seems like they might get the shaft from the big insurance companies because they focus on satisfying the bigger clients.

Of course, they only care about people with benefits and cushy union jobs, everyone else be damned.

nashBridges: You either join the union or don't get a job.

ummmm no.

you go to a non-union shop and make half the money for more hours.

pnjunction: Of course, they only care about people with benefits and cushy union jobs, everyone else be damned.

WHAT?

The AFL-CIO works to get stuff for union members?!

YOU COULD KNOCK ME OVER WITH A FEATHER RIGHT NOW.

How dare they not represent people who aren't members of their organization.

pnjunction: If not, this seems like the equivalent of tax-free income that only people with benefits enjoy.

Opinion follows:
I like how insurance benefits can be considered "income" for employees... if that were the case, I'd rather my employer just give me the money they'd otherwise give to an insurance company, and allow me to make my own decisions wrt who I receive coverage from. I'd probably pocket the money for a few years, then finally go with someone who would be able to provide me with more appropriate or affordable coverage.

I honestly don't have an answer for your questions, but there should be no way that people should be taxed for the insurance benefits they receive, because that money is never actually held by the person. I'd be for tax breaks for those who use their own personal income to buy insurance, or whose benefits come out of their paycheck every week. I'd also be for tax breaks for employers who pay insurance benefits for their employees. However, if a company offers to cover employees via a blanket coverage plan, the employees shouldn't have to pay taxes on top of it.

If someone pays health care costs out of pocket, I do believe they can receive tax breaks.

please update the picture and show how unions actually create waste in the market... thanks.

MyRandomName: please update the picture and show how unions actually create waste in the market... thanks.


unions cost us jobs!

pnjunction:
Of course, they only care about people with benefits and cushy union jobs, everyone else be damned.

Lobbiest lobbying for the groups they're paid to represent? Unpossible! Someone call Ric Romero and get me an exclusive expose', stat.

moar funny pictures

MyRandomName: please update the picture and show how unions actually create waste in the market... thanks.

They don't, save in closed shops, and even then I'm dubious of claims of waste. Unions are actually fantastically capitalist - they leverage the market power of the workers' labor, as well as the goodwill of the public, to extract concessions from the employer. If those concessions are too much, then the employer will refuse to bargain and will hire scabs. It's an elegant solution to the problem of excess capital - collective bargaining helps slow the flow of money upward and creates a solid middle class, which then drives further economic growth and innovation.

Unions are a win-win, as long as the public doesn't get too upset about the hiring of scabs, and as long as the employer isn't stupid. The former is a societal issue, and the latter is a sign that the employer needs to get the fark out of the business if he can't preserve the efficiency of his workplace.

farking union bashing. You drones are so well trained your betters need not even spend any time managing you.

Angel of Death: AnotherDisillusionedCollegeStudent: I wonder how many politicians are owned by unions compared to how many are owned by management.

So many more, duh! Why do you think politicans do so much to help blue-collar working folks while managers and executives have to struggle to make ends meet? It's just not right, I tells ya.

OHH close but you just missed it. Politicians that are in the Unions back pocket don't give a flying fark about the workers except when it's election time of course. You don't have to do right by the union workers it's the union bosses keep them happy and you can count on the Union vote.

A good Union prevents the Company from exploiting the workers. A bad Union IS exploiting the workers and workers have no recourse but to acccept it.

Unions are to labor what Corporations are to capital.

Don't like it? Get rid of both.

GIS for "beach volleyball union" & now that I have your attention

There is power in a factory, power in the land
Power in the hands of a worker
But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand There is power in a Union

Now the lessons of the past were all learned with workers' blood
The mistakes of the bosses we must pay for
From the cities and the farmlands to trenches full of mud
War has always been the bosses' way, sir

The Union forever defending our rights
Down with the blackleg, all workers unite
With our brothers and out sisters from many far off lands
There is power in a Union

Now I long for the morning that they realise
Brutality and unjust laws can not defeat us
But who'll defend the workers who cannot organise
When the bosses send their lackies out to cheat us?

Money speaks for money, the Devil for his own
Who comes to speak for the skin and the bone
What a comfort to the widow, a light to the child
There is power in a Union

The Union forever defending our rights
Down with the blackleg, all workers unite
With our brothers and out sisters from many far off lands
There is power in a Union.

Ask Americans: Do you like Unions?

"Oh hell no! "Lazy bastards!"

Ask Americans:

Would you like to have some say in the way your company is run? Do you think you should have some bargening power in how wages are awarded, and do you think people that dedicate their lives to a company deserve some measure of commitment from the employer to the worker?


"Well of Course!" "That's only fair! I hate the way my company does things sometimes!"

And for your amusement, A graph.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4184/uniondeclinebenefitskq0.gif

But look at Germany! Their workers are much more unionized than American. But would any of you want to drink German beer or drive a German car?

I thought so.

it's really simple.

republicans love the CEOs and the corporations because they give them money

dems love the working people because they give them money.

Unions are champions . . . of mediocrity

Business needs to be able to make a profit.
Workers need an economic floor.
If the bargaining power of workers is no match for the corporations, the government needs to step in with more regulation of industry.
It's a far better thing not to cripple the strength of unions and trade associations, so that the govt can act more as an arbitrator and less as a regulator.

DarnoKonrad: Do you think you should have some bargening power in how wages are awarded

Your bargaining power is what talent you bring to the table, how valuable that talent is to the company, and what the competition is offering for that kind of talent.

Corporations don't exist for the purpose of employing people, and if you'd like to have so much say so in a company you can start your own.

Stolen from kornkob-
Okay kids-- here's the deal. You can only choose one of 2 positions:

a) Unions are the saving grace of civilization without which there would be no clean water, art, primary schools, beer of any sort or breathable water. Anyone who disagrees is either Hitler or a sheep.

b) Unions embody the worst of all humanity and they all kick puppies. Unions invented cancer, rape and cannibalism which are the 3 things they spend most of their time promoting. Anyone who disagrees is an uneducated moran. You know who else liked unions? That's right-- that socialist pig Hitler.


Now, choose A or B and line up on your respective sides of the Farking Gorge hurling insults and ad hominem arguments at the other side.

Unions are kind of on an island nowadays. They were so partisan for so long, republicans gave up on courting them. Democrats have given their seat at the big boys table to the trial laywers. The unions have been reduced to the dog that gets to lick the plate after everyone else eats.

Hobodeluxe
it's really simple.

republicans love the CEOs and the corporations because they give them money

dems love the working people because they give them money.

Over the last couple elections Bush has done very well with "working people" AKA small doners.

The billionair donors seem to be going more for democrats.

dogdaze
Unions are champions . . . of mediocrity

AND

Look at how much they have helped the auto industry.
Yes Unions where essential YEARS ago but how many kids are there working in the coal mines now?? I always found it very supportive that the union official will be there right with you to protest and stand on the picket line (while they of course get their 100k year and you are getting nothing during the strike) when the company goes under where's the union boss then?? Off to the next strike/protest. Why again are you paying some clown $50/hour to change light bulbs? And then the union takes 1/4 of your check? Because we all know that unions have never been and never will be corrupt?? Would they?
Just saying that they have morphed into an entity that is not really needed anymore or at least the cost could be minimized greatly. What rights are workers not getting now that they could not negotiate for them selves or if they spent half the money that they are spending on "dues" on lets say .... Insurance or retirement how would that be a bad thing?

0Icky0: But look at Germany! Their workers are much more unionized than American. But would can any of you want to drink German beer or afford to drive a German car?


/FTFY

For all union-haters out there, how can you explain the lack of conservative opposition to police and fireman unions?

Is it possible you are being selective with your facts?

"The Employee Free Choice Act"?

Nice-sounding name, but isn't that the proposed law that would take away the employee's right to vote yes or no before a union can take over a shop?

Angel of Death

Nobody forces anybody to join a union. If you don't want to join the grocery clerks' union, don't be a grocery clerk.

God, I hope you are trolling.
You mean, if I don't want to join a union, I shouldn't
become a grocery clerk
work for the federal government
work in a public school
work in manufacturing
and so on

The unions have transformed from the bastion of worker's rights to greedy, innovation-strangling monopolies that exploit the average worker through closed shops, burdensome dues, and contracts which reflect the interests only of the bosses, not of the people they supposedly represent.

They have no interest in the preservation of the company or its profits, but take a short-term view and preserve the obsolete and the incompetent at the risk of everyone losing their jobs (see the UAW and the early-90s Detroit newspaper strikes).

Even when the jobs are guaranteed, such as public education, more effort goes into maintaining the status quo and growing the rolls than in, I don't know, actually educating and providing support to the teachers. Lower income and part-time workers frequently pay more than 10% of the take home pay in dues (I, personally, had to pay $100/month out of an $800/month teaching gig) and they receive no benefits, but count towards the union membership.

Their recruiting tactics are unethical and can be illegal. Again, I, personally was individually singled out, cornered (literally) by union representatives trying to close the hospital I worked at's IT shop, and was physically prevented from leaving until I heard the entirety of the half-hour pitch.

Of course, removing the possibility of a closed shop and forcing multiple unions to compete for the worker's dues would remedy most of these problems.

But the AFL-CIO won't let that happen.

The AFL-CIO is also not happy with due process, secret ballots, and people actually working when they are at work, and they want six figure incomes for former high school stoners who are only qualified to tighten bolts on an assembly line. Take their views with a grain of salt..

/i may have them confused with the UAW

justoneznot: Corporations don't exist for the purpose of employing people....

Then why is my tax money being spent on "economic development incentives"?

zenobia: justoneznot: Corporations don't exist for the purpose of employing people....

Then why is my tax money being spent on "economic development incentives"?


You're asking the right question, just asking it of the wrong people.

chrischris451 2008-03-14 08:28:02 AM
For all union-haters out there, how can you explain the lack of conservative opposition to police and fireman unions?

Is it possible you are being selective with your facts?

Public safety unions might be the only exception to the rule because of the people that are putting their lives on the line for our safety ...... How again does the Autoworkers union help us? Pipe fitters, electricians, plumbers, baggage handlers, bell men etc..
DO you really think that if we get rid of these other unions that all of a sudden the will be ANARCY!! Unsafe work etc..
Um, I think that there will still have to be standard and codes?

In the last couple years I have seen 3 big tire companies and a huge Maytag plant that employed 2/3 of a city go away because they could not afford the unions. Ask the ex-employees how much the union did for them. Yea they were right there on the picket lines with them, the only difference is the union guys were still getting their paychecks while the others had to start selling all of their stuff in order to survive. And then when it was over where was the union then?? Nowhere to be seen.

Bartman66

Municipal unions can be just as pernicious as other unions. However, dangerous services tend to instill a brotherhood amongst coworkers that is an actual, strong, spontaneous pack creation. The union becomes an overlay, but one that still needs oversight. Talk to a couple cops or firemen, and you'll see union issues. Hell, across the street from me is a retired Jersey fireman union boss. He readily acknowledges the corruption he encountered (though he won't speak in detail - taking the 5th, he's called it).

Unions are great asset as long as they are paid what the market allows. Where they have run into trouble in this country is they bought into the class warefare mentality pushed by one political party. Their shortsided philosophy that they were always entitled to more pushed themselves out of the market.

luidprand
Bartman66

Municipal unions can be just as pernicious as other unions. However, dangerous services tend to instill a brotherhood amongst coworkers that is an actual, strong, spontaneous pack creation. The union becomes an overlay, but one that still needs oversight. Talk to a couple cops or firemen, and you'll see union issues. Hell, across the street from me is a retired Jersey fireman union boss. He readily acknowledges the corruption he encountered (though he won't speak in detail - taking the 5th, he's called it).

You are absolutely right on that one, corruption is one of the biggest issues and there has to be oversight. I am always amazed how much the unions will fight to have as little accountability as possible.
You stated it perfectly before "The unions have transformed from the bastion of worker's rights to greedy, innovation-strangling monopolies that exploit the average worker through closed shops, burdensome dues, and contracts which reflect the interests only of the bosses, not of the people they supposedly represent."

+9
//would have been a +10 but that pumpkin head pic on your profile scares me

Bartman66

You think the pumpkin head is scary, you should see my face.

luidprand

LOL

Thank god you said it was a mask .... I was thinking that you might need some more vitamins in your diet.

justoneznot: DarnoKonrad: Do you think you should have some bargening power in how wages are awarded

Your bargaining power is what talent you bring to the table, how valuable that talent is to the company, and what the competition is offering for that kind of talent.

Corporations don't exist for the purpose of employing people, and if you'd like to have so much say so in a company you can start your own.

Right. Move to China or some other country with no labor laws, before you take that position. See how far you get.