You mean, providing an education that doesn't say that the Earth is 6000 years old? That a sky ghost made the Earth on the first day, before there was a sun to actually delineate days? That evolution is something that actually has observable evidence? Gee, that sure sucks subby. But, keeping the masses as ignorant as possible would be far better, right subby? Let's get rid of all education!

its kinda hard to beat a teacher to student ratio off 1:1.

oh wait...I forgot. Everyone who home schools kids believes the Earth is 6000 years old and this has NOTHING to do with money.

log_jammin: its kinda hard to beat a teacher to student ratio off 1:1.

Kind of the point - the rules say that you have to be an accredited TEACHER to teach. So you can have your 1:1 school time just as long as you can prove that you're actually teaching your kids something instead of just taking them with you to run errands all day.

The teachers unions may be less delighted if those 166,000 home schooled kids are poured into the public schools -Homeys always outperform the publicly schooled kids on everything to an embarrassing degree.

/Seeking equality is not noble if you attempt it by dragging down the better to equal the worse.

Similarly, the oppressive dictatorship of California will not allow me to perform open heart surgery on my own children. Damn liberals!

log_jammin: oh wait...I forgot. Everyone who home schools kids believes the Earth is 6000 years old and this has NOTHING to do with money.

The ones who are getting mad about this on World Net Daily, Free Republic, etc. all do. They also want to make sure that their precious snowflakes don't hear a word about the evil bits between their legs until they are at least 45 years old and well adjusted.

If we're going to have it in the constitution of a state that every child is guaranteed a quality education, then we better make sure that quality is upheld.

As for the money thing: Yes, teachers are part of unions that want teachers to keep their jobs. Big surprise. The process to fire bad teachers might be too long, but the solution to that is not to lower standards so that everyone can be a teacher.

Il Douchey: The teachers unions may be less delighted if those 166,000 home schooled kids are poured into the public schools -Homeys always outperform the publicly schooled kids on everything to an embarrassing degree.

Not necessarily. There are good public schools in California, and mostly the parents that homeschool are upright, conservative homeowners, and so they live in places where the good public schools are. Their decision to homeschool is based on either "don't teach my kid sex" or "don't teach my kid evilution."

True, homeschoolers do better on average against their public school counterparts, but those studies take ALL homeschoolers into account and then take ALL of public schools into account and compare them. Yeah, wealthy middle class two-parent households produce smarter kids than single parent working class households. Big surprise there!

Etchy333: Similarly, the oppressive dictatorship of California will not allow me to perform open heart surgery on my own children. Damn liberals!

my sister inlaw is an accredited teacher. trust me. teaching is not the same as preforming open heart surgery.

Shaggy_C: as long as you can prove that you're actually teaching your kids something instead of just taking them with you to run errands all day.

I'd be for that. same tests or some sort of progress report every quarter.

Etchy333: True, homeschoolers do better on average against their public school counterparts, but those studies take ALL homeschoolers into account and then take ALL of public schools into account and compare them.

what other way is there to compare them?

"sure MOST of them do better but I know the kid of a lazy parent who isn't!"

WTF?

Etchy333: As for the money thing: Yes, teachers are part of unions that want teachers to keep their jobs.

and I was referring more to "school districts receiving money based on how many kids are in their schools"

log_jammin: what other way is there to compare them?

Take into account economic and social strata discrepancies? Don't compare a kid homeschooled in Bakersfield to a kid in a public school in South Central, LA?

Hopefully this means less creepy student-teacher sex scandals.

Etchy333: Don't compare a kid homeschooled in Bakersfield to a kid in a public school in South Central, LA?

so don't compare a kid who is getting an decent education at home to a kid who is getting a shiatty public education, as a way to justify not letting a parents home school their own kids?

you should run for office.

FTFA:

Parents can be criminally prosecuted for failing to comply, Croskey said.

"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.

I find this kind of creepy.

/Home schooled kids are anarchists!!!11!!

Il Douchey: The teachers unions may be less delighted if those 166,000 home schooled kids are poured into the public schools -Homeys always outperform the publicly schooled kids on everything to an embarrassing degree.

/Seeking equality is not noble if you attempt it by dragging down the better to equal the worse.

Back up that claim with something other than "because I said so hurrrr" or STFU.

log_jammin: you should run for office.

That sounded snarkier than I meant it. sorry.

Cagey B: Il Douchey: The teachers unions may be less delighted if those 166,000 home schooled kids are poured into the public schools -Homeys always outperform the publicly schooled kids on everything to an embarrassing degree.

/Seeking equality is not noble if you attempt it by dragging down the better to equal the worse.

Back up that claim with something other than "because I said so hurrrr" or STFU.

Do you have something to back up that they don't?

/Just out of curiousity
//"Hurrr"

muck4doo: Do you have something to back up that they don't?

/Just out of curiousity
//"Hurrr"

So the onus is on everyone else when patently ridiculous claims are made?

Here's one: "People with mono-brows outperform everyone else on the LSATs by astounding margins every single time."

Now go prove me wrong.

Cagey B: Now go prove me wrong.

so your saying there are no studies comparing public school students to home school students?

or are you just assuming there isn't?

Cagey B: muck4doo: Do you have something to back up that they don't?

/Just out of curiousity
//"Hurrr"

So the onus is on everyone else when patently ridiculous claims are made?

Here's one: "People with mono-brows outperform everyone else on the LSATs by astounding margins every single time."

Now go prove me wrong.

Patently ridiculous? Prove his claim is patently ridiculous. Or is it ridiculous just becuase you said so, "hurrr"? I'm under the impression that home schooled children do a lot better on average than their public school counter-parts. Here are some links for you. Knock yourself out:

Link

log_jammin: Cagey B: Now go prove me wrong.

so your saying there are no studies comparing public school students to home school students?

or are you just assuming there isn't?

I'm sure there are studies. I am, however, extremely doubtful that they will prove the blanket assertion that all homeschooled children, as a body, will outperform all public school students, as a body, in everything all the time.

This is a complex issue. Here are two sentiments that are both ill-informed, illogical and unhelpful in the extreme.

Sentiment One: "Homeschooled kids are by their very nature superior to all others, and will outperform all other students all the time"

Sentiment Two: "All homeschooled kids are fundie nutjobs who believe Jesus rode dinosaurs"

You'll be seeing both of those in excessive quantity, especially when it goes green. I'd just as soon have dropped the same criticism on Shaggy_C in the first few posts, but I'm already facepalming at him in another thread.

Anyways, yeah. If you make outlandish claims about large groups of people, you should come prepared to actually, you know, defend your position. I don't have a bunch of studies at hand mostly because I'm not staking out a particular position here, and as such am not making any monumental pronouncements.

Cagey B: This is a complex issue. Here are two sentiments that are both ill-informed, illogical and unhelpful in the extreme.

Sentiment One: "Homeschooled kids are by their very nature superior to all others, and will outperform all other students all the time"

Sentiment Two: "All homeschooled kids are fundie nutjobs who believe Jesus rode dinosaurs"

I agree 100%.

and while I can't speak for Il Douchey: and I know nothing about him, I would be willing to bet he meant "home schooled kids generally out preform public schooled kids"

I'm not staking out a particular position here

I think the only reason I got started was the "the Earth is 6000 years old! LOL!" comment.

I'd never home school my kids. i don't have the patience or the time. I just don't like the idea that the state can throw you ass in jail for teaching your kids the ABC's on your own.

Cagey B: log_jammin: Cagey B: Now go prove me wrong.

so your saying there are no studies comparing public school students to home school students?

or are you just assuming there isn't?

I'm sure there are studies. I am, however, extremely doubtful that they will prove the blanket assertion that all homeschooled children, as a body, will outperform all public school students, as a body, in everything all the time.

This is a complex issue. Here are two sentiments that are both ill-informed, illogical and unhelpful in the extreme.

Sentiment One: "Homeschooled kids are by their very nature superior to all others, and will outperform all other students all the time"

Sentiment Two: "All homeschooled kids are fundie nutjobs who believe Jesus rode dinosaurs"

You'll be seeing both of those in excessive quantity, especially when it goes green. I'd just as soon have dropped the same criticism on Shaggy_C in the first few posts, but I'm already facepalming at him in another thread.

Anyways, yeah. If you make outlandish claims about large groups of people, you should come prepared to actually, you know, defend your position. I don't have a bunch of studies at hand mostly because I'm not staking out a particular position here, and as such am not making any monumental pronouncements.

Ah, I see where you're coming from now. In that case, you're right. He should have said "on average", or "overall" instead of the way he phrased it.

Cagey B: Check it out (new window)

/I drink your Milkshake -I drink it up!

muck4doo: Cagey B: muck4doo: Do you have something to back up that they don't?

/Just out of curiousity
//"Hurrr"

So the onus is on everyone else when patently ridiculous claims are made?

Here's one: "People with mono-brows outperform everyone else on the LSATs by astounding margins every single time."

Now go prove me wrong.

Patently ridiculous? Prove his claim is patently ridiculous. Or is it ridiculous just becuase you said so, "hurrr"? I'm under the impression that home schooled children do a lot better on average than their public school counter-parts. Here are some links for you. Knock yourself out:

Link

After having spent way too much time perusing information to dig up proof of somebody's argument for them, I come to several conclusions about the info:

-Most information contained in your link was put out by incredibly biased pro-homeschooling organizations

-Most did not even cite studies when making their claims. One of the few to cite research actually ended up citing a Time Magazine article about research.

-That Time Magazine article makes the claim that homeschooled students perform markedly better on SAT tests (1100 average compared to 1020, IIRC) and on a standardized test in Iowa. HOWEVER, the same article also brings up the point of selection bias.

-Research into performance based on standardized tests runs into difficulty because not all homeschooled students take these exams. What you are getting is an incomplete picture, and in fact you may be seeing results skewed by better performing students who will both be more motivated to take these tests and will have more benefit from taking them.

So, if you're reading the same links I am and forming your opinion based on the same material, your assumption rests on information outlets with a clear agenda in mind that as a rule cite, at best, second hand interpretations of study data. There's also no original research being referenced or linked.

Personally, I think you're defending the wrong person in this thread. Il Douchey made a pretty bold claim, one that I find to be ridiculous. Why? Because there doesn't seem to be any actual reason to think that, other than having a particular policy preference.

As what usually happens with complex issues (of which education has got to be the big kahuna), the reality is a lot more nuanced than the partisans like to make it out to be.

muck4doo: Ah, I see where you're coming from now. In that case, you're right. He should have said "on average", or "overall" instead of the way he phrased it.

We're in agreement, then. Sorry if I come across overly hostile, you strike me as pretty reasonable in these threads and I have no desire to flame you. Also you're an A's fan, and we're getting rarer these days.

log_jammin: I'd never home school my kids. i don't have the patience or the time. I just don't like the idea that the state can throw you ass in jail for teaching your kids the ABC's on your own.

Agreed.

Il Douchey: Cagey B: Check it out (new window)

See my point above about selection bias. You've got something, I'll admit, but it's far from bulletproof.

/I drink your Milkshake -I drink it up!

I've heard it dozens of times, but it still amuses me every time I hear it. I retract my "STFU".

FTA:

"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.

um....right....yah....

All homeschooled kids are fundie nutjobs who believe Jesus rode dinosaurs.

spill_thrill: All homeschooled kids are fundie nutjobs who believe Jesus rode dinosaurs.

WHATEVER!

Homeschooled kids are by their very nature superior to all others, and will outperform all other students all the time!

Il Douchey: The teachers unions may be less delighted if those 166,000 home schooled kids are poured into the public schools -Homeys always outperform the publicly schooled kids on everything to an embarrassing degree.

Buahahahahhahahahahhahahahaha

*deep breath*

BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

/please don't be serious
//please don't be serious
///please don't be serious

FTA:

"Also, "Homeschool students did quite well in 1998 on the ACT college entrance examination."

That kinda raises red flags for me right there... you mean the latest numbers they have are a decade old...

Could there be a reason for this... lol ?!

Btw...

I don't think there is anything wrong with homeschooling... know a few folks who did it and turned out great... and a few - not so great - same as public schools... most just kinda in the middle like everyone else...

Still questioning the numbers at the end of the article...


Michael

log_jammin:

I'd never home school my kids. i don't have the patience or the time. I just don't like the idea that the state can throw you ass in jail for teaching your kids the ABC's on your own.

I think this aspect of the issue should be of most concern. This strikes me as quite onerous.

Shaggy_C: You mean, providing an education that doesn't say that the Earth is 6000 years old? That a sky ghost made the Earth on the first day, before there was a sun to actually delineate days? That evolution is something that actually has observable evidence?

Well, if they are teaching crap like that in your kid's school, you could always home sch...Oh, wait.

teachers should get paid well, but does every shiat stain that works in the schools need to earn like 45k or more a year? how about going to the private sector for janitors and nurses and the secretary, even crossing guards get something like 12k and full health insurance..

Dancin_In_Anson: Shaggy_C: You mean, providing an education that doesn't say that the Earth is 6000 years old? That a sky ghost made the Earth on the first day, before there was a sun to actually delineate days? That evolution is something that actually has observable evidence?

Well, if they are teaching crap like that in your kid's school, you could always home sch...Oh, wait.

You don't understand. The whole point is that if one person can't use his freedom responsibly (by teaching his children nonsense), then no one should have that freedom because it's just too dangerous. That's why we've taken steps like banning alcohol, fast cars, firearms, sex, and free speech. It's much better to have a central authority making decisions for you so that you don't make mistakes.

Murkanen: Buahahahahhahahahahhahahahaha

Teacher's Unions are motivated by the desire to preserve the entrenched beauracracy, to shield the monopoly from unflattering comparisons, to protect inferior teachers from scrutiny, to maintain a reward system that is not based on performance, to implement social agendas...

Homeschoolers are motivated by the desire to give their children the best possible education.


So, Giggles, who would you entrust your kid's education to?

I was homeschooled through most of K-12 because I showed signs of depression at a very early age, and my mother didn't want to see her precious snowflake's creative spirit crushed by nazi conformist teachers.

A few of the homeschooler clichés are certainly applicable to me; I spent a lot of time watching The Price is Right instead of studying, and I had a hard time relating to other kids from the time I was 8 to around 14 or so (though I think that would have been the case regardless of any amount of "socialization" I'd have gotten at public schools).

I was allowed relatively free access to secular books, movies, and music, though. Rage Against the Machine (or anything else with constant F-bombs) was off limits until I was in my teens, but my parents were cool about me listening to REM, Smashing Pumpkins, and The Breeders from a fairly early age. I always had friends to hang out with, I dated, and I never really felt like I was especially different from anyone else I knew.

I did well in college (3.5 GPA or so), but ultimately dropped out because I was already making good money in my chosen field without a degree. I've done well in both blue and white collar jobs. I'm currently self-employed and making ends meet comfortably. I'm an atheist and a political moderate, and my conservative Christian parents are fine with that. I'm seriously dating (and hopefully soon to be engaged to) a profoundly secular woman who was at least a little floored to learn I was homeschooled -- apparently I don't seem like the "type".

I may be a completely atypical case, but for whatever it's worth, not all homeschoolers are fundie nutjobs. It has its pros and cons, just like any system of education. If a homeschooled kid can keep up with standardized testing, and can carry a conversation with his or her peers, then I think they're doing fine.

/Here's the part where someone finds a word I've misspelled and uses it to prove that my education was worthless.
//I wish *I* could ride a dinosaur. ._.

Smellvin: You don't understand. The whole point is that if one person can't use his freedom responsibly (by teaching his children nonsense), then no one should have that freedom because it's just too dangerous. That's why we've taken steps like banning alcohol, fast cars, firearms, sex, and free speech. It's much better to have a central authority making decisions for you so that you don't make mistakes.

My bad.

Remember people, Pro-choice only means that you support the freedom as to whether or not you want to kill your babies, not how they get educated.

/Thread needed more flame material.

I teach at an elementary school, so I'm really...

Seriously; it's a poverty stricken rural area where parents regularly beat the kids, each other, or leave. As a result, there are a high percentage of "problem" kids whose parents constantly threaten to home school their child. Then the parents find out you need to be at least semi-literate and sober. If I had the choice, I'd make standards looser--it'd reduce my class size, eliminate the parents who thump the bible while teaching their five year old kids to say attractive and successful African-American, and I'd never have to think about test scores or AYP again.

muck4doo: Remember people, Pro-choice only means that you support the freedom as to whether or not you want to kill your babies, not how they get educated.

Full Disclosure:
-I'm a teacher
-I've taught 2 different subjects (history and english)
-I've taught in 2 different countries (US and China)

And I think... When I have kids, I'm pretty sure what I'll do

School (either public or private)

The socialization factor is huge.
-Kids need to learn how to be with other kids
-Kids need to learn how to be with adults that aren't family

Street Smarts
-You can't teach a child how to live in the world, if they don't see it

General Knowledge
-I don't know everything. Other teachers know things I don't know. I want my kid(s) to learn the things I can't teach them.
-I'm a smart enough, and concerned enough, person to teach my kids that shiat is shiat even if their school teacher says otherwise.

Public vs Private
-Thats a whole different issue

I always found it interesting that Benjamin Franklin (who was completely self-educated) was the foremost proponent of public education during the formative years of our republic. He considered public educational institutions absolutely critical to the political health of a republic and a society. I tend to agree with his assessment.
However, there is a significant difference between providing these institutions for the public good and compelling active participation in them. As was mentioned upthread, any freedom can be abused by a fool. That does not justify curtailing the general freedom at question.

I'm all for allowing parents as many options to educate their child as reasonably possible. Depending on where you live a government school might be your best choice. In other cases private or homeschooling works best. We should not restrict the choices of the many because of the poor behavior of the few.

Most parents will move heaven and earth to do the right thing for their children. When writing education based legislation that should be the first assumption and not the last.

I've been on both sides of this debate and still am.

I'm pretty big on personal freedom, and interfering with parents teaching their own children stinks.

Teaching your children that the earth is 6000 years old and that there is any truth to ID is child abuse.

OK, where's the pic of the homeschooled bride who turned out just fine?

Dancin_In_Anson: Well, if they are teaching crap like that in your kid's school, you could always home sch...Oh, wait.

Ask the Farkers who homeschool their kids and they'll tell you just how hard it is to find homeschooling materials that aren't centered around the "God did it 6000 years ago, everything else is a lie" brand of crazy.

Il Douchey:

Homeschoolers are motivated by the desire to give their children the best possible education.

Those are the minority of folks who homeschool, and I really have no issue with them.

So, Giggles, who would you entrust your kid's education to?

Between your strawman and the non-existant utopian thought that you seem to think is the reason why most of folks decide to homeschool their kids? How could I possibly choose?

Bush's contribution to fascism:
If you call afghanistan, we might listen to your phone call. Maybe. If you're not an American citizen.

Liberal's contribution to fascism:
Hand over your children or else.

12 Inch Pianist:

As was mentioned upthread, any freedom can be abused by a fool. That does not justify curtailing the general freedom at question.

In this case it affects people who aren't making the decision on whether or not they get a proper education. It's the same reason why people aren't all that thrilled about vaccination exemptions being abused by the "vaccines cause autism" asshats. Not only is it putting the kids at unnecessary risk, but it also puts everyone else at risk by weakening the herd immunity affect.

CodeGod:

Liberal's contribution to fascism:
Hand over your children or else.

It sounds more like "Don't abuse the system or else" to me.