You have to use the tools that you have available. And when it comes to tools, our government has plenty of them.

But damn it, we have lots of cool toys we need to build, and lots of government defense contractors that need our tax dollars to survive!

Is subby implying that the War of Terror has anything to so with the intelligence of humans? I thought the whole idea counted on the fact we'd be too friggen stupid to know what our government was doing.

ummm DUH

Cyberluddite: But damn it, we have lots of cool toys we need to build, and lots of government defense contractors that need our tax dollars to survive!

I wonder how much better we'd be doing in this struggle if we had invested the budget for, say, the Paladin or the F-22, into Arabic language training. For anyone.

It was a lack of human intelligence that got us into Iraq and undermined the war on terrorism.

During Korea the kill ratio was 12/1, for every twelve of their aircraft we shot down we lost one of our own.
During Vietnam that ratio fell to 3/1. Our pilots were dependant on missiles.
Top Gun was created to teach ACM Air Combat Manoeuvring, Dog fighting,
By the end of Vietnam that ratio was up to 12/1.

Fluent Arabic speakers tend to be muzzie. Not exactly the most patriotic crowd.

/Lying to Christians is not considered a sin or even a little wrong.

Cagey B: I wonder how much better we'd be doing in this struggle if we had invested the budget for, say, the Paladin or the F-22, into Arabic language training. For anyone.

They tried that. Unfortunately, many of the people they invested money in arabic training for ended up also having a fair bit of talent for interior decorating, so they had to let them go :D

DrMcNinja:
By the end of Vietnam that ratio was up to 12/1.

At least if the turrists start sending flying goats at us, we'll be well prepared ;)

I saw a propoganda video on military.com or whatever that was supposed to mimic that "priceless" visa commercial, it showed an Iraqi mortar "team"(two guys with a pipe and some mortar shells) through night vision then it went on to tell us that the bomb being dropped on these two guys was 500,000 dollars and that the death of these two bottom feeders was priceless. Well, I don't think it is priceless, I think at some point you gotta say, wtf, wouldn't it be cheaper to kidnap these two guys and then dip them in liquid platinum?

There is no farking "war on terror". WTF is a war on terror?

Call it what is really is ... a GIANT TAXPAYER FINANCED CASH GRAB.

/again, ashamed to be an American

This actually makes perfect sense to me... considering how many complete retards use technology like sites such as this to blather on about Bush & demand equal rights for terrorists, etc...

Perhaps if they were instead using some form of HUMAN intelligence & reasoning... the democratic party wouldn't have so much support.

/:)

Cagey B: I wonder how much better we'd be doing in this struggle if we had invested the budget for, say, the one Paladin or the F-22, into Arabic language training. For anyone.

FTFY

bacccc: /again, ashamed to be an American

Just as we're ashamed you are one.

stlbluez: considering how many complete retards use technology like sites such as this to blather on

The self loathing is strong with this one...

How can you expect to recruit for HumInt when you can't even keep the identity of your intelligence agents from becoming political footballs?

You have to fall back on technology when you shoot yourself in the foot in recruitment.

DrMcNinja: During Vietnam that ratio fell to 3/1. Our pilots were dependant on missiles.

Because the missiles we used back then were crap. If the AIM-7 had actually worked, it would have been a different story.

This isn't surprising.
Why learn math when you have a graphing calculator?

There are much better ways to fight an insurgency then from space with unmanned drones, but if we did that then we might be successful. Then where would we test the new equipment out? Afghanistan? Even Rummy said we couldn't tell if we bombed anything, becuase the country is/has been devestated.

DNRTFA, but the headline reminds me of an Arthur C. Clarke short story called "Superiority."

The_Passion_of_the_Koresh: DrMcNinja: During Vietnam that ratio fell to 3/1. Our pilots were dependant on missiles.

Because the missiles we used back then were crap. If the AIM-7 had actually worked, it would have been a different story.

That's kinda the point. The missles were crap yet they were still relying on them because they were the new hotness. You have to integrate the new hotness with the old tried and true to get the perfect mix.

Having a computer and HTML competence makes me an institute, too.

Obvious tag go home sick today?

Just as we're ashamed you are one.

Speak for yourself.
I'm proud to have him here. We need more people ashamed of what is going on and demanding change rather than more fascist, knee-jerk, morAns stuck in blind auto-"patriot" mode.

I actually learned Arabic for the Army so Im really getting a kick out of some of these commments.

Seriously, I did. Then I failed the listening portion of the final exam by three points and got sent where all semi-proficient Arabic linguists: South Korea.

Also, while I was at DLI (Defense Language Institute) I witnessed A LOT of Farsi linguists get sent to units deploying to Iraq and A LOT of Arabic linguists get sent to units deploying to Afghanistan.

sgtbarthel: I witnessed A LOT of Farsi linguists get sent to units deploying to Iraq and A LOT of Arabic linguists get sent to units deploying to Afghanistan.

you would hope so...although quantifying "alot" and putting it into a graph next to the other stuff the military spends our money on would be a challenge.

Cagey B: Cyberluddite: But damn it, we have lots of cool toys we need to build, and lots of government defense contractors that need our tax dollars to survive!

I wonder how much better we'd be doing in this struggle if we had invested the budget for, say, the Paladin or the F-22, into Arabic language training. For anyone.

Well anyone but the gays! We can't have them doing god's army's work.

We should have used all the money we have thrown into Iraq/War on Terror to create an alternative to radicalism in the region. We need to find and secretly fund/support the Ghandi/MLK types in the region who would stand up to the corruption of the Middle East regimes and even us for our past support of these regimes publically via non violence and give the people in the region a moderate voice to express their discontent so they don't have to turn to radicalism and can finally move into the 21st century to reform the countries politics and economies.

I think that Robert Baer and Richard Marcinko called this one about 8 years ago. I might have a small man crush on Marcinko, even though he'd pull my asshole out and show it to me if I told him that (though it's purely because he's an ornery badass).

/Just finished "See No Evil" and it's equally great and depressing.

Trusting the government without oversight is patriot. Just ask our the Founding Fathers.

It would work just fine except for one little thing!
The perverts and child pornographers don't want anyone to access the internet or the phone lines and mess up their furtile hunting ground.
And the rest of the left is falling for it.
On the wrong side again are we ?

The war on terror is bullshiat anyway. It's just a power grab by the feds to ensure that fascism is America's only choice.

US Humint has always been considered sub-par by other intelligence agencies,their Elint and Sigint though.....

That's what happens when you get a President that is a farking retard.

/Hate to say i told you so
//but
///I told you so.

JerkyMeat: The war on terror is bullshiat anyway. It's just a power grab by the feds to ensure that fascism is America's only choice.

yeh... we were never attacked, all this concern over national security is just a distraction to take away your right to speak on a cell phone about selling, or buying drugs.

/Considered "liberal" by most
//This kind of mindless trolling is what makes reasonable, open minded individuals automatic :::clears throat in embarassment::: "libtards".
///we will be attacked again, and then we can finally blame bush

IXI Jim IXI: Cagey B: I wonder how much better we'd be doing in this struggle if we had invested the budget for, say, the Paladin or the F-22, into Arabic language training. For anyone.

They tried that. Unfortunately, many of the people they invested money in arabic training for ended up also having a fair bit of talent for interior decorating, so they had to let them go :D

What a shame. The documentaries I've seen just prove that some of those places need a little livening up.

The articles poltical rhetoric aside our lack of human intelligence assets has been a problem since the 1970s when we decided we did not want our people associating with bad elements to find out what is going on in the world. For Human intel we relied on other countries that were less finicky like the UK, France and Israel.

Unfortuantely if you want to know what is going on in the mud hole you are going to have to get muddy. It can take years if not decades to build a good human intelligence network but only hours to destroy it.

"I will] totally dismantle every intelligence agency in this country piece by piece, nail by nail, brick by brick"
Ron Dellums, D-Calif. after been elected to be chairman of the House Armed Services Committee in 1994.

"Whereas the United States is the world's largest operator of military and intelligence satellites and has spent billions of dollars on aerial surveillance as a sole means of information gathering, MI6 utilizes this technology as a means to determine where HUMINT resources need to be allocated."


"We believe Burns still has that bill hidden somewhere in his house. But all we've ascertained from satellite photos is that it's not on the roof!" - Simpsons

/Nice

RandomExcess: Fluent Arabic speakers tend to be muzzie. Not exactly the most patriotic crowd.

/Lying to Christians is not considered a sin or even a little wrong.

While lying about Mulsims or anyone else for that matter is not considered a sin, or even a little bad in whatever ass-backwards religious system you make up for yourself.

Pacodoszappatos:

yeh... we were never attacked, all this concern over national security is just a distraction to take away your right to speak on a cell phone about selling, or buying drugs.

/Considered "liberal" by most
//This kind of mindless trolling is what makes reasonable, open minded individuals automatic :::clears throat in embarassment::: "libtards".
///we will be attacked again, and then we can finally blame bush

Yeah, the "I'm a libtard but.." line... The Iraq war and the accompanying eradication of civil liberties had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. It was planned years previously, and to claim otherwise is either ignorance to the point of stupidity, or willful denial with intent to mislead others. We're still giving taxpayer dollars to the people that "attacked us", and I suspect you damn well know that.

Whatever feeds the preposterous national dialogue. It's not a concerted effort to loot the treasury and funnel money to family and cronies, nooooo. It's just that we're farking stupid!

Pacodoszappatos: "Whereas the United States is the world's largest operator of military and intelligence satellites and has spent billions of dollars on aerial surveillance as a sole means of information gathering, MI6 utilizes this technology as a means to determine where HUMINT resources need to be allocated."


"We believe Burns still has that bill hidden somewhere in his house. But all we've ascertained from satellite photos is that it's not on the roof!" - Simpsons

/Nice

It's fun to pretend you're subtle and wise. The only problem is you need to back that up with actual knowledge and awareness. This is where you blew it.

If the defense contractors could manufacture human intelligence we would be fine.

Krymore: The Iraq war...was planned years previously, and to claim otherwise is either ignorance to the point of stupidity, or willful denial with intent to mislead others.

Look, I'll leave the "erosion of civil liberties" out of this, for reasons that'll soon be clear. BUT-

I'd be very disappointed if the Pentagon didn't have well thought-out plans on how to fight every friggin' Nation on the face of the Earth. I don't want them to publish them, I don't want them to make a big deal out of it, but I want to believe that if it becomes necessary to invade Great Britain next Tuesday, that we've got a well thought-out, war-gamed plan in the file, ready to be acted upon. And I feel more strongly that there ought to be plans to fight Nations that act a little more "interesting" towards us.

Yes, I know it's not feasible, and some armchair general wants to tell me why current manpower couldn't handle the strain. I just want to believe that we have the plans on file.

Just in case.

Gonz:

I'd be very disappointed if the Pentagon didn't have well thought-out plans on how to fight every friggin' Nation on the face of the Earth. I don't want them to publish them, I don't want them to make a big deal out of it, but I want to believe that if it becomes necessary to invade Great Britain next Tuesday, that we've got a well thought-out, war-gamed plan in the file, ready to be acted upon. And I feel more strongly that there ought to be plans to fight Nations that act a little more "interesting" towards us.

I wasn't referring to military contingency plans. I'm sure the Pentagon does have some sort of plan on file for just about every unlikely scenario. I was referring to the Bush administration and their backers, people associated with the Project for the New American Century, who have publicly admitted and have released documents confirming that there had been a concentrated effort to justify a military occupation of Iraq long before 9/11, and that ties between the Hussein regime and Osama Bin Laden, as well as Saddam's alleged possession of nuclear weapons, was deliberately exaggerated, or fabricated in order to justify to the public what they considered necessary.

The author makes some good points. However, HUMINT has it's own perils and pitfalls -- not the least of which is that a network you've taken decades to develop can be brought down by a single Aldrich Ames or Robert Hanssen.

What the fark is "The War on Terror" anyways?

I'm terrified of bees.

I hope they are farking sending bees to Guantanamo Bay, because if not, as a tax payer and a citizen I will be pissed!

We have too many morons in congress and the majority have a D after their name.
The R's are not immune either.
I know I would feel safer with all our ears running at full speed.
I can say that because I don't do or deal drugs nor do I chase children in kids chat rooms.

I don't think Americans will be very sympathetic to the Dems in congress if anything happens while they figure out how to hold up the telecommunications company's for doing their part in the war on terror.
The FISA bill was approved by a panel which included Nancy Pelosi and Jane Harman and a simple extension would have been all that was needed in the short term.
Fark us its the principles that count.