It's too bad Coburn isn't honest enough to admit he was mistaken about "rampant lesbianism" in public schools.

TFA (quote from his communications director): The only question that matters about Iraq now is: When do we leave? Do we leave prematurely, surrender to Al Qaeda and perhaps trigger genocide? Or do we complete the mission that is now clearly working? The debate about whether we should have gone into Iraq is interesting historically but not relevant to the here and now. We are there. We have obviously made mistakes based on faulty intelligence. However, history - and the decisions of our next president - will render the final verdict on Iraq.

In other words, "Coburn said that without running it by me first; thanks for waiting until I could think of the proper spin and call you back."

Coburn may be crazy as a shiathouse rat, but he occasionally says something that makes a lot of sense. Like his "transparency in government" work that he's done with Obama.

Inhofe, on the other hand, is a professional dumbass. The sooner he kicks the bucket, the better it will be for all of us.

jbc: It's too bad Coburn isn't honest enough to admit he was mistaken about "rampant lesbianism" in public schools.



Was he talking about this like it was a bad thing?

UberDave: Was he talking about this like it was a bad thing?

Yes.

More and more I find myself getting my news from Salon.. good site


/and Fark
//of course Fark

And remember, folks, Coburn is the SMART Senator from OK.

...relatively speaking, of course.

I think that invading Iraq was a mistake, but I also don't think we should just pull out. Iraq is mess. A mess we (as a country) made. I feel we (as a country) have an obligation to stay in as long as necessary to clean up our mess.

If you are one of those people that doesn't buy the argument that we should clean up our mess, that's fine, I've got a second argument.

Think about the long term situation in the middle east. If we pull out of Iraq now, what happens to Iraq? Sure its cheaper for us in the short term, but what is likely to happen in the long term and how much will that cost us?

ShawnDoc: I think that invading Iraq was a mistake, but I also don't think we should just pull out. Iraq is mess. A mess we (as a country) made. I feel we (as a country) have an obligation to stay in as long as necessary to clean up our mess.

If you are one of those people that doesn't buy the argument that we should clean up our mess, that's fine, I've got a second argument.

Think about the long term situation in the middle east. If we pull out of Iraq now, what happens to Iraq? Sure its cheaper for us in the short term, but what is likely to happen in the long term and how much will that cost us?


While this is a reasonable point, we can only do so much with military force. Ultimately it's up to the Iraqi people to come up with a political solution to their problems and so far they have accomplished exactly diddly squat in the last three years.

He is another "fiscal conservative" that is pushing the earmark red herring. fark him.

understatement of the year. Thanks a lot, Capt. obvious, you figure that out all by yourself?

Edsel: Ultimately it's up to the Iraqi people to come up with a political solution to their problems and so far they have accomplished exactly diddly squat in the last three years.

I (mostly) agree with this. But I think to expect a country that has lived under a dictatorship for so long, you can't just expect them to convert to Democracy overnight. It takes time for the people to adjust (Esp with some of the deep Ethnic issues they have), as well as time for an entirely new government to take shape. The only people with any experience running a government worked for Saddam, and for obvious reasons you don't want too many of them left in place. So instead you have to bring in people with little experience and let them learn how to do it.

That said, I think the US hasn't done enough to push Iraq into self-dependence and certainly think a new strategy is in order. I just don't think that strategy is "Pull out and wash our hands of it" like so many anti-war people do.

/Also don't think we should still be calling it a "war". Its been an occupation for years, we should it such.

It WAS a mistake, but we CAN'T LEAVE, EVER.

$250 billion a year poured down a black hole, forever.

Your grandchildren are going to be fighting in Iraq.

Bush farked us pretty good.

ShawnDoc: I think that invading Iraq was a mistake, but I also don't think we should just pull out. Iraq is mess. A mess we (as a country) made. I feel we (as a country) have an obligation to stay in as long as necessary to clean up our mess.

If you are one of those people that doesn't buy the argument that we should clean up our mess, that's fine, I've got a second argument.

Think about the long term situation in the middle east. If we pull out of Iraq now, what happens to Iraq? Sure its cheaper for us in the short term, but what is likely to happen in the long term and how much will that cost us?

I completely agree. The fact that the invasion is widely recognized as a total blunder really has no bearing on the fact that the mess has been made and not cleaning it up will leave the whole world a lot worse off than if America never invaded it at all.

Edsel: While this is a reasonable point, we can only do so much with military force. Ultimately it's up to the Iraqi people to come up with a political solution to their problems and so far they have accomplished exactly diddly squat in the last three years.

I agree that things aren't progressing there as fast as everyone wishes they were but three years isn't really that long a time. Building a nation takes time, and pulling out completely is irresponsible. Reducing troops to keep with the security situation as it improves is fine, but its America's responsibility to stay there, they caused the problem. Pressure the Iraqi government, offer incentives to friendly tries, do what you gotta do, but fix that place up before you even think of getting out.

***err offer incentives to friendly tries tribes

NotWithoutAsswelts: It WAS a mistake, but we CAN'T LEAVE, EVER.

Why NOT EVER?

Why is it Senator Coburn hates America all of a sudden?

Why NOT EVER?

Because Iraq is going to be farked up forever.

ninth_level_dan: More and more I find myself getting my news from Salon.. good site

Is this serious, or are you just being snarky?

I was just about to comment on the lack of truly unbiased reporting these days. Everything seems to lean so far one way or the other, I don't believe anything anymore and don't have time to check all over the place.

\I'm too busy ignoring Skookum on Fark.

Isn't this guy being groomed for Vice President candidacy with McCain?

That might explain his admitting going into Iraq was a mistake--kind of counters McCain's hundred years in Iraq comment.

ShawnDoc: I think that invading Iraq was a mistake, but I also don't think we should just pull out. Iraq is mess. A mess we (as a country) made. I feel we (as a country) have an obligation to stay in as long as necessary to clean up our mess.

If you are one of those people that doesn't buy the argument that we should clean up our mess, that's fine, I've got a second argument.

Think about the long term situation in the middle east. If we pull out of Iraq now, what happens to Iraq? Sure its cheaper for us in the short term, but what is likely to happen in the long term and how much will that cost us?

This is going to sound awful, let me apologize in advance.

I don't think it matters when we pull out, now or in some far off day when life is oh so wonderful in Iraq. The shiat is going to hit the fan either way. If we wait until the country is nicely in order and all repaired, they'll just fark it all up again.

ShawnDoc: The only people with any experience running a government worked for Saddam, and for obvious reasons you don't want too many of them left in place. So instead you have to bring in people with little experience and let them learn how to do it.


They're letting some of the old Baathist bureaucrats back in, I heard. It's been too much of a clusterfark without any institutional memory of how to run a civil service.

Bag on government workers all you like, but without them, you're not getting your car registered, your business license approved, or your potholes filled. So, they're letting the low level folks back into their old jobs. I think they're making sure to keep out the upper-level political types, though.

/I hope they sort their shiat out soon. I want to go visit the archaeological sites there.

Admitting your problem is the first step...

Now if there is just a twelve step program for Iraq war supporters...

Failing_Junk: He is another "fiscal conservative" that is pushing the earmark red herring. fark him.

Actually, when it comes to being fiscally conservative I think Coburn is actually pretty serious about it.

Oklahoma...why do we care about thee?! You mooch off of the successful states, and your citizens screw up the curve!

wowzer97pooh: Isn't this guy being groomed for Vice President candidacy with McCain?

That might explain his admitting going into Iraq was a mistake--kind of counters McCain's hundred years in Iraq comment.

I don't want McCain to be President. But seriously, people are entirely mis-characterizing his '100 years in Iraq' statement. His answer was predicated on there being no violence; in other words, like Germany and Japan, which we've occupied for 60 years. Now, I don't agree with his judgment there (I don't think we'd ever be able to maintain a large presence in Iraq and have it remain peaceful) but still. You're really twisting what he said if you think he means staying in a combat role there for 50 or 100 years.

jbc: It's too bad Coburn isn't honest enough to admit he was mistaken about "rampant lesbianism" in public schools.

Too bad Coburn wasn't right...

This has got to be the most level headed, good willed comments section on a Iraq story to hit the front page ever.

VR6Rattles: Oklahoma...why do we care about thee?! You mooch off of the successful states, and your citizens screw up the curve!

I'm from Oklahoma, what has Connecticut done lately for the world that's so great. You northeastern elitist asshole............

///had Coburn election sign in my yard
///will vote for Dr. Tom again
///yes Inhofe is an idiot

NotWithoutAsswelts: Why NOT EVER?

Because Iraq is going to be farked up forever.

Then we should leave.

If our being there doesn't un-fark up Iraq, then let's get the heck out of Dodge.

grob: I'm from Oklahoma, what has Connecticut done lately for the world that's so great. You northeastern elitist asshole............

///had Coburn election sign in my yard
///will vote for Dr. Tom again
///yes Inhofe is an idiot


Now we know who to point at and laugh. Silly okie.

Republicans are praying for an attack against America so they can shift the blame to congressional democrats. This is no different than the blame shifting they do 100% of the time anyway. Republicans are incapable of taking responsibility and that is why change is coming to America. That is todays GOP, a party shifting itself into irrelevance.

Rovian: Republicans are praying for an attack against America so they can shift the blame to congressional democrats. This is no different than the blame shifting they do 100% of the time anyway. Republicans are incapable of taking responsibility and that is why change is coming to America. That is todays GOP, a party shifting itself into irrelevance.

You see, the difference between liberals and the "real world" is that the real world knows liberals are never going to go away so when you lose we know perfectly well that you're not done yet. When the Republicans suffer a set back, you seem to think that this means it's over for them... then you wander around for 8 years screaming about how things were "stolen" from you, because surely your ideas are so sound and accepted that nobody would vote against them.

Subby, by your logic if Coburn said "it was a bad idea for me to break my leg" then he is a hypocrite if he goes to the doctor to get it fixed.

How about we skip talking about whether it was a good idea to invade, and stick to the question of what to do now?

ShawnDoc: I think that invading Iraq was a mistake, but I also don't think we should just pull out. Iraq is mess. A mess we (as a country) made. I feel we (as a country) have an obligation to stay in as long as necessary to clean up our mess.

Run that idea by people who have loved ones in Iraq, and see what they think . . .

Secondly, the Iraqis created 90% of this mess on their own. No, we shouldn't have invaded, and yes, it was terribly managed when we did, but nobody was forcing the Iraqis to start blowing each other up at random. THEY chose to go on that path rather than take constructive measures to rebuild their country, and they should be left to live with it. And yes, a good portion of the insurgents are from other countries, but who was hosting them? You don't just waltz into a country and set up shop. They had Iraqis to provide them with room and board. They asked for all the bloodshed they've experienced since the invasion.

Bad, Regrettable OK !
Should have been done in 1991 before over two hundred thousand Iraqis were slaughtered on our account.

That was preventable but of course the powers to be said leave Saddam alone.

Thats the cost of appeasement.
WW2
Russia 21 million souls
China 21 million souls
Germany 7 million souls
Jews 6 million souls
Japan 3 1/2 million souls
US 450,000 souls
I can't remember Poland , England , Italy ,France , Africa , Albania but the tab of lost lives is staggering considering all war is preventable at some point if not aloud to fester.

An Ounce of prevention has always been common sense in medical circles.

FuriousGeorge945: Actually, when it comes to being fiscally conservative I think Coburn is actually pretty serious about it.

Maybe he is, i cant tell any more.

Run that idea by people who have loved ones in Iraq, and see what they think . . .

Secondly, the Iraqis created 90% of this mess on their own. No, we shouldn't have invaded, and yes, it was terribly managed when we did, but nobody was forcing the Iraqis to start blowing each other up at random. THEY chose to go on that path rather than take constructive measures to rebuild their country, and they should be left to live with it. And yes, a good portion of the insurgents are from other countries, but who was hosting them? You don't just waltz into a country and set up shop. They had Iraqis to provide them with room and board. They asked for all the bloodshed they've experienced since the invasion.

this

larry00: Bad, Regrettable OK !
Should have been done in 1991 before over two hundred thousand Iraqis were slaughtered on our account.

That was preventable but of course the powers to be said leave Saddam alone.

Thats the cost of appeasement.
WW2
Russia 21 million souls
China 21 million souls
Germany 7 million souls
Jews 6 million souls
Japan 3 1/2 million souls
US 450,000 souls
I can't remember Poland , England , Italy ,France , Africa , Albania but the tab of lost lives is staggering considering all war is preventable at some point if not aloud to fester.

An Ounce of prevention has always been common sense in medical circles.

I've never heard over a trillion dollars described as "an ounce" before.

larry00

for every example of WWII, you can quote an example, like WWI, where that same ounce of prevention lead to unspeakable destruction and loss of unnecessary life. Hindsight is 20/20 but in the case of bush, what happened in Iraq was not a mystery. You are just trying to apologize for a monumental stupid mistake that Bush made against the advice of pretty much everyone who knew the region and a good chunk of our allies.

Listen to 1991 Cheney explain why Iraq-2003 was a horrible idea. Everything that he predicted as the defense secretary that would go wrong did, and makes me slap my forehead to the shiatstorm we started.

Please tell me what we have accomplished for out 1 trillion dollars and 4000/40000 dead/wounded?

McCain/Coburn: goodbye pork.

(not gonna happen)

grob: VR6Rattles: Oklahoma...why do we care about thee?! You mooch off of the successful states, and your citizens screw up the curve!

I'm from Oklahoma, what has Connecticut done lately for the world that's so great. You northeastern elitist asshole............

///had Coburn election sign in my yard
///will vote for Dr. Tom again
///yes Inhofe is an idiot

Oklahoma is a welfare state. Without Connecticut (and its blue tax-paying brethren) your state would have blown away long ago.

You have no place to talk.

Freeze to death in the dark, you damn Yankees.


/I keed
//Okie against Coburn AND that idiot Inhofe.