I am so sick of these reactionary shills. Islam isn't that different than the other Abrahamic religions. Technical culture is now making changes faster than the lifetimes of workers, so society must provide assistance to those caught up in them. Simply put, every time mass production is improved, workers are displaced. This is what the engineering class is trying to do. So we need some form of socialism. Deal.
Supply-side economics isn't even a religion, much less the one-true-way!

signaljammer: So we need some form of socialism. Deal.

No thanks, Comrade.

signaljammer: So we need some form of socialism.

What do you mean "we", Kemo Sabe?

signaljammer: I am so sick of these reactionary shills. Islam isn't that different than the other Abrahamic religions. Technical culture is now making changes faster than the lifetimes of workers, so society must provide assistance to those caught up in them. Simply put, every time mass production is improved, workers are displaced. This is what the engineering class is trying to do. So we need some form of socialism. Deal.
Supply-side economics isn't even a religion, much less the one-true-way!

Okay there Ted Kaczinski (pops)

signaljammer: So we need some form of socialism. Deal.

Yea, Europe is dying. Their currency is tanking, they aren't growing economically, they have a negative trade balance.

Oh, wait, no they don't. Their currency is gaining in strength, they're gaining productivity, they're growing their economy 5% a year, and they have a positive trade balance. They sure are dying from all that cheap Muslim labor.

Islam isn't that different than the other Abrahamic religions.

No of course it isn't but last time I checked we don't stone adulterers or repress and degrade women as part of our "law". Go to some of these neighborhoods in England and see if you can get 40yds without someone accosting you if you are a female, before you start spouting the "you are a bunch of xenophobes" nonsense.

palladiate: Yea, Europe is dying. Their currency is tanking, they aren't growing economically, they have a negative trade balance.

Their economy might be a bit more in tatters if they actually had to, you know, provide for their own defense. Piggy-backing on the US sure makes it easy to spend money on social welfare programs

Yea, Europe is dying. Their currency is tanking, they aren't growing economically, they have a negative trade balance.

Sure 25% unemployment rates are something to strive for....yeah...fail.

"If Europe repeats the shameful response of Spain after the Madrid train-bombing - blame America and give the jihadists what they demand - then you'll know Europe is through."

QFT.

palladiate: They sure are dying from all that cheap Muslim labor.

Yeah the Muslims will enjoy the power of the Euro when they take over. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3273120,00.html (pops)

palladiate: They sure are dying from all that cheap Muslim labor.

I think the Interviewee was talking about the heart of their western culture, not their economy.

signaljammer: Islam isn't that different than the other Abrahamic religions

So other Abrahamic religions have practitioners that are accommodated with shiat like this...

(somewhat intended)

Lopez: Is it overdramatic to say Europe has "abandoned God and country"?

Thornton: Certainly not, if one is speaking, as I do, of the European political and cultural elite. Refusing to acknowledge, in the European Constitution, the historical fact of Christianity's role in creating Europe in the first place is pretty dramatic. So are the empty cathedrals across the continent.



"Are you havin' a laugh? Is he havin' a laugh?"

Nabb1: signaljammer: So we need some form of socialism.

What do you mean "we", Kemo Sabe?

He probably means "socialism, as currently rabidly defined by its opponents, is currently in place in every 1st world country and is not going away."

Just guessing.

If socialism can, at its weakest definition, be called the belief that certain parts of a nation are owned collectively and need to be managed collectively, then there's no way to have a modern nation without it.

Of course, people have buggered the meaning of socialism all to hell, so who knows what it means to any particular person.

Dancin_In_Anson: signaljammer: Islam isn't that different than the other Abrahamic religions

So other Abrahamic religions have practitioners that are accommodated with shiat like this...

(somewhat intended)

Yes, yes they are.

Obdicut: Yes, yes they are.

You have an example of a publicly (government) managed building being remodeled or reconstructed to accommodate a single Abrahamic religion other than islam?

And don't even get me started on the fact that the UK allows Muslim men with multiple wives (which is illegal in the UK) to collect welfare on each one. That's not an accommodation is it? Of course not....

+1 signaljammer, don't listen to these re(actionary)tards. Your post was right on.

sepuku2: I think the Interviewee was talking about the heart of their western culture, not their economy.

Our "cultures" have been destroyed over the last few hundred years too. We are no longer "English" or "French" or "Spanish." Cultures change when you have immigrants.

KaponoFor3: Their economy might be a bit more in tatters if they actually had to, you know, provide for their own defense.
Who the fark is going to attack Europe? China? Japan? Russia? Considering France has nukes and huge uranium deposits, I really don't think they would have to worry about anyone BUT us.

Defense spending

USA $623.0 billion
China $65.0 billion
Russia $50.0 billion
France $45.0 billion
United Kingdom $42.8 billion
Japan $41.75 billion
Germany $35.1 billion
Italy $28.2 billion
Spain $9.9 billion
Netherlands $9.4 billion
Greece $5.9 billion
Sweden $5.5 billion
Poland $3.5 billion
Portugal $3.5 billion
Denmark $3.3 billion
Switzerland $2.5 billion
Czech Republic $2.2 billion
Finland $1.8 billion
Austria $1.5 billion
Romania $1.5 billion
Hungary $1.1 billion

Europe total $202.7 billion


Sure, they don't spend any money on defense. I'd have spaced it better, but tables don't seem to work on Fark.

the true test will come as the huge number of white european baby boomers start to retire.

They will expect the generous social welfare benefits to continue and the muslim immigrants, who are the only ones having children, are expected to work and pay higher taxes to support them. especially as they will be supporting a population that is non-religious and doesn't much like them. muslim birthrates in europe are three times the white european birth rate.

Dancin_In_Anson: You have an example of a publicly (government) managed building being remodeled or reconstructed to accommodate a single Abrahamic religion other than islam?

Given that there are only 2, saying "a single other" is kind of funny.

Here's some past accomodaton, ended now in Florida but still going on elsewhere. Link (new window)

It's a nicely ironic one, too.

Here's a very thoughtful series by the BBC about faith behind bars. There's one kosher meal a day, which meets the remodeled/reconstructed arbitrary bar you set, but also shows Yom Kippur being respected.

Link (new window)

By the way, the "remodeling or reconstructing" arbitrary bar was really callow of you.

Here's some stuff about prison chapel libraries restoring books they'd removed:

Link (new window)


Here's candle-lighting allowed on Hannukah, which is very, very touching:

Link (new window)

Here's a great article about the challenges facing all people of faith in the Colorado prison system. It's very moving:

Link (new window)


The way we treat prisoners in this country, in England, and throughout much of Europe, is still very shameful. Denying people the right to worship as they see fit is terrible, whether it is happening-- as is shown in these articles-- to a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian, a Buddhist, or a Church Of the Reformed Potato layman.

Instead of protesting when one group finally wins a battle and is allowed to have their dignity restored just a tiny bit, to have part of their rituals of worship and reverence restored, why don't you cheer?

Obdicut: Instead of protesting when one group finally wins a battle and is allowed to have their dignity restored just a tiny bit, to have part of their rituals of worship and reverence restored, why don't you cheer?

There's a bit of a difference between offering meals in accordance with dietary restrictions and making books available in the library and actually overhauling plumbing fixtures. If you don't see a difference, then by all means feel free to come over to my house and replace my kitchen faucet for me and I'll go to the book store for a couple of hours.

Good god man, does anybody actually take this NRO seriously? Just the questions this interviewer asked are a laff riot:

What was the first sign that Europe was suicidal?
What will be the last? How slow is this slow-motion suicide?
Is it overdramatic to say Europe has "abandoned God and country"?
What and where is "Eurabia"?
Is there a European view of free speech? How poisonous is it?
How damaging has the EU itself been to Europe?

Obdicut: Given that there are only 2, saying "a single other" is kind of funny

That was the basis of the comment of the first in this thread was it not?

There's one kosher meal a day, which meets the remodeled/reconstructed arbitrary bar you set

Which was the basis of the example I gave to which you replied, was it not?


The way we treat prisoners in this country, in England, and throughout much of Europe, is still very shameful.

Keeps me from breaking the law. Something the current residents should have considered as well.

Dancin_In_Anson: Obdicut: Given that there are only 2, saying "a single other" is kind of funny

That was the basis of the comment of the first in this thread was it not?

There's one kosher meal a day, which meets the remodeled/reconstructed arbitrary bar you set

Which was the basis of the example I gave to which you replied, was it not?


The way we treat prisoners in this country, in England, and throughout much of Europe, is still very shameful.

Keeps me from breaking the law. Something the current residents should have considered as well.

The only thing that keeps you from breaking the law is punishment?

And no, the true bar is "accommodations made for people of faith", not ones involving construction work.

Anyway, you were wrong. Have a good one.

palladiate: Who the fark is going to attack Europe?

No one, because they know the US has come into Europe twice to protect many of its countries/liberal democracy way of life. History tends to set precedent, as I'm sure you will agree. I'm guessing that Russia would certainly like to re-establish some of its buffer zone from Western Europe, especially given some of Putin's recent harsh rhetoric.

Dancin_In_Anson: Keeps me from breaking the law

Exactly. If you broke a law, I'm thinking you don't really necessarily deserve a hotel-like stay while you are doing your time. It's prison. It's not supposed to be fun. It's supposed to suck and motivate you to never come back.

Obdicut: The way we treat prisoners in this country, in England, and throughout much of Europe, is still very shameful. Denying people the right to worship as they see fit is terrible, whether it is happening-- as is shown in these articles-- to a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian, a Buddhist, or a Church Of the Reformed Potato layman.

Actually I think condemned criminals in the West have it pretty good compared to countries in the East. I can't think of a single eastern country with the exception of Japan that treats prisoners with more dignity.

FTFA, QFT, YA RLY: I think the E.U. has fostered the illusion that Europe can be a world power by ceding national authority to a faceless, undemocratic bureaucracy in Brussels, and so has fostered a dangerous illusion that humanity, or at least Europeans, have evolved beyond force and national rivalries into a utopia where political technicians solve all problems with rational discussion and international agreements. That idea is dangerous, for in a dangerous world, the credible threat of force will remain the key not just to defending ourselves, but to achieving aims such as the expansion of human rights, eradication of poverty, etc., as Europe to its humiliation learned in the '90s with the Balkan crises - and may learn again, if Europe has to stand by, as she will, if Russia intervenes in Kosovo. More important, nothing suggests that people can take their sense of who they are from a bureaucracy rather than from a nation comprising people who live and speak like themselves. One response to the attempt to do so may be a nationalist resurgence that takes xenophobic or neo-fascist forms.

The dark night of fascism is forever descending upon the U.S., but it always seems to land in Europe.

Oh, and the Euro suffers from the same defects as the dollar right now... government writing checks it cannot afford. Europe and America really have very similar problems; the Europeans are simply better at hiding them and denying they exist.

the Europeans are simply better at hiding them and denying they exist.

the european conceit they can keep their generous social welfare programs going indefinitely and still remain prosperous in a rapidly globalized world economy is a recipe for inevitable disaster

While I am so historian, Europe has been around a long time. It's not going anywhere.

Obdicut: The only thing that keeps you from breaking the law is punishment?

It ranks pretty damn close to the top of reasons.

KaponoFor3: I'm guessing that Russia would certainly like to re-establish some of its buffer zone from Western Europe, especially given some of Putin's recent harsh rhetoric.

Western Europe could kick Russia's ass alone if they tried to invade Eastern Europe. Only if China joined in would any real victory be possible, and if that happens we'd have a massive farking World War. Nobody would sit by and let that happen.

Sure, our alliances help them, but they don't NEED us to survive an invasion. Besides, why would he conquer them with force when he could bleed them with petroleum and gas access. Russia controls most of the pipelines into Europe, and that's where they derive most of their power.

QU!RK1019: Good god man, does anybody actually take this NRO seriously? Just the questions this interviewer asked are a laff riot:

What was the first sign that Europe was suicidal?
What will be the last? How slow is this slow-motion suicide?
Is it overdramatic to say Europe has "abandoned God and country"?
What and where is "Eurabia"?
Is there a European view of free speech? How poisonous is it?
How damaging has the EU itself been to Europe?

that reads like a colbert interview.

FlashHarry: How damaging has the EU itself been to Europe?

Yea, when I read that at the bottom of the page, I realized we were dealing with less than a full deck here.

KaponoFor3: Exactly. If you broke a law, I'm thinking you don't really necessarily deserve a hotel-like stay while you are doing your time. It's prison. It's not supposed to be fun. It's supposed to suck and motivate you to never come back.

Even though it really, really clearly fails to work that way?

FlashHarry: that reads like a colbert interview.

Good call! "Iraq: Great War or Greatest War?"

albo: the Europeans are simply better at hiding them and denying they exist.

the european conceit they can keep their generous social welfare programs going indefinitely and still remain prosperous in a rapidly globalized world economy is a recipe for inevitable disaster

What does globalization have to do with the social welfare issue? Honestly curious-- I can't see any connection.

sepuku2: Actually I think condemned criminals in the West have it pretty good compared to countries in the East. I can't think of a single eastern country with the exception of Japan that treats prisoners with more dignity.

Yeah, I actually meant "given that we're all post-Enlightenment and all over here".

Kathryn Jean Lopez: What was the first sign that Europe was suicidal?

When did Europe stop beating his wife? ...and it goes downhill from there...

Dat's sum gud jernalizm right dere, K-Lo

Obdicut: What does globalization have to do with the social welfare issue? Honestly curious-- I can't see any connection

for one, europe's social welfare system requires higher taxes and more labor and industry regulation, which raises the cost of their goods, which makes it harder to compete in the market with goods from industrializing nations that don't have those tax and regulatory burdens.

albo: for one, europe's social welfare system requires higher taxes and more labor and industry regulation, which raises the cost of their goods, which makes it harder to compete in the market with goods from industrializing nations that don't have those tax and regulatory burdens.

Okay, at least that's a theory. It's a rather unproven one, but it's a theory.

Now, the corollary of that theory is that our nation is also not going to be able to compete in the global market, due to child labor laws.

Do you believe that corollary to be true?

Dancin_In_Anson: You have an example of a publicly (government) managed building being remodeled or reconstructed to accommodate a single Abrahamic religion other than islam?

In Obdicut's defense most of the buildings are already built to accommodate both Christians and Jews.

Plus what constructions would we need to add in to accomidate the others?

The failure to see the true nature of Communism - that it is an ideology diametrically opposed to all the ideals of liberal democracy Europeans touted and enjoyed - bespeaks a suicidal collapse of certainty in the rightness of Western Civilization's achievements, particularly respect for the individual, human rights, and political freedom.

Hard to argue with that one. The author nailed in one go.

Weaver95: Hard to argue with that one. The author nailed in one go.

That sentence that you're lauding is meaningless. And I think Communism is bankrupt as a political and economic ideology.

Dancin_In_Anson: You have an example of a publicly (government) managed building being remodeled or reconstructed to accommodate a single Abrahamic religion other than islam?


You haven't been to New York. If you had you'd know about "Sabbath Elevators".

signaljammer: I am so sick of these reactionary shills.!


Stopped reading after that.

albo: the true test will come as the huge number of white european baby boomers start to retire.

They will expect the generous social welfare benefits to continue and the muslim immigrants, who are the only ones having children, are expected to work and pay higher taxes to support them. especially as they will be supporting a population that is non-religious and doesn't much like them. muslim birthrates in europe are three times the white european birth rate.

Actually in 20 years Turkey will be in Eurpoe, bring ca. 80 million Muslims with it. But sharia in turkey? I don't think so.

Ah, well at least we can export our fear of brown people.

the first flamebait headline was ridiculous... for this one i'm a little more sympathetic.

and signaljammer, that is the single most stupid thing i will read on the internets today.

or see on the Youtube for that matter.