nationalized healthcare, socialists, hillary clinton, blah blah blah.


/zzzzz

At least in the UK, you can get treatment in the ambulance, if you don't have insurance.

buzzvert: At least in the UK, you can get treatment in the ambulance, if you don't have insurance.

You can in the US too, big guy.

buzzvert: At least in the UK, you can get treatment in the ambulance, if you don't have insurance.

Emergency care, they have to treat you, no matter your ability to pay.

Somehow though, socializing US medical care would be good, even though it doesn't seem to be working well where it is in effect.

I wonder how many of the US pro-government healthcare farkers will even bother posting here, or will they just pretend that this article doesn't exist.

buzzvert: At least in the UK, you can get treatment in the ambulance, if you don't have insurance.

In the US, you can always get treatment. The big question is whether or not you get a bill and for how much, and how many times you have to call the ins company to make it smaller.

buzzvert: At least in the UK, you can get treatment in the ambulance, if you don't have insurance.Ah the "nationalized healthcare advocates" myth of American healthcare. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE in the U.S. can walk into any hospital and get treatment. You think all those illegal immigrants clogging up emergency rooms in California are wealthy, or insured?

derek20cali: buzzvert: At least in the UK, you can get treatment in the ambulance, if you don't have insurance.

You can in the US too, big guy.

Well, sure. Of course, rather than paying for it, we just passed a law that says you can't refuse to treat anybody requesting emergency care regardless of ability to pay. We didn't bother actually funding it.

To recap, here's what we have right now in the US:

1. National Healthcare, courtesy EMTALA
2. But only in Emergency Rooms, the least efficient place available for primary care
3. Without any funding
4. Which raises costs for those who can pay to cover the deadbeats
5. And clogs the ER with non-emergent patients

Socialized health care... I can't wait. I wish people realized that if it doesn't work, there is no turning back from it. If it fails, we're stuck with it forever. Social Security is a prime example of another failed program we can't seem to get rid of.

The more dependent we become on the government, the more power the government has over us.

devildog123: buzzvert: At least in the UK, you can get treatment in the ambulance, if you don't have insurance.

Emergency care, they have to treat you, no matter your ability to pay.

Somehow though, socializing US medical care would be good, even though it doesn't seem to be working well where it is in effect.

I wonder how many of the US pro-government healthcare farkers will even bother posting here, or will they just pretend that this article doesn't exist.

It exists. It just doesn't change my opinion. Show me any system that's perfect.

Spud Boy: In the US, you can always get treatment. The big question is whether or not you get a bill and for how much, and how many times you have to call the ins company to make it smaller.

Yes- I should have clarified- in the UK you get free or low-cost treatment. In the US, you either have to fight the insurance companies for every dollar, or run from the creditors, if you're poor.

I will go on record saying that anyone posting advocacy for the current health care system in this country has never either

a) been sick
b) been poor
c) thought they were "covered", only to get a huge-ass medical bill

devildog123

Somehow though, socializing US medical care would be good, even though it doesn't seem to be working well where it is in effect.

I'd take a funded healthcare system over EMTALA any day. EMTALA is a miserable failure because it wastes expensive ER time and staff treating people with the sniffles for free because they can't turn them away by law, and because the law didn't bother to fund this care. This also exacerbates the delays in getting real emergency care.

It would be FAR more cost-effective to give these people free primary care visits than it is to use the ER as their family doctor and the ambulance as their bus service.

The headline sounds about the same as healthcare in the United States, with one glaring exception: treatment is not always available, at all sometimes, for a "non-emergency" situation under the American system.

As somebody who has waited four hours in an American emergency room wait area and still had to pay a couple grand I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

buzzvert: I will go on record saying that anyone posting advocacy for the current health care system in this country has never either

a) been sick
b) been poor
c) thought they were "covered", only to get a huge-ass medical bill

Just like in the medical industry, treating the symptom of the problem will not cure the disease. Unless you ask yourself WHY healthcare is so expensive, you'll never fix the problem. You can treat the symptom of high prices with government health care, but that doesn't fix the underlying problem.

devildog123: Somehow though, socializing US medical care would be good, even though it doesn't seem to be working well where it is in effect.

If socialized health care doesn't work in Europe and Canada, what makes you think it will work here? Wishfull thinking? Good intentions? The fact that it DOESN'T work is reason enough not implement it here!

I had a friend who lived in France for several years and has nothing bad to say about nationalized healthcare, at all. At any rate, our current system needs a major overall. For-profit healthcare just doesn't make sense.

Squeak: I had a friend who lived in France for several years and has nothing bad to say about nationalized healthcare, at all. At any rate, our current system needs a major overall. For-profit healthcare just doesn't make sense.

Don't mention France in your defense. It's a wonderful nation, but Americans have an irrational fear of that country and what it represents (progress, apparently).

WFern: The headline sounds about the same as healthcare in the United States, with one glaring exception: treatment is not always available, at all sometimes, for a "non-emergency" situation under the American system.

You hit the nail on the head. People who can't afford health insurance or medical bills will do one of two things under the US system, and it's hard to blame them:

1. Claim their non-emergency is an emergency, and waste the ER's time getting treated or kicked out.

or

2. Not get treated, and wait until it develops into an actual emergency, and then get treated for free at the ER at greatly increased expense that could have been avoided.

-------------------
Squeak: I had a friend who lived in France for several years and has nothing bad to say about nationalized healthcare, at all. At any rate, our current system needs a major overall. For-profit healthcare just doesn't make sense.
-------------------

It makes perfectly good sense if you are the one making money on it. It makes perfectly good sense if you like telling people "How much is your life worth to you?"

buzzvert: I will go on record saying that anyone posting advocacy for the current health care system in this country has never either

a) been sick
b) been poor
c) thought they were "covered", only to get a huge-ass medical bill

After my discharge from the service, while I was in college, I gave blood, then worked out the next day. Got bad dehydration and went to the emergency room. I had no insurance. Got treated, got a big bill. Talked to the hospital, and went on a payment plan. I took an extra job to pay for it, because the GI Bill and my "retirement" check didn't cover it all. I payed off the debt though.

I'm not saying that it was easy, but I took care of myself, I didn't go whining for the government to bail me out.

I'm not saying things are perfect, but at least they are better than they are other places. Consider how much you pay in Medicare taxes rigt now, even if you don't use the system. I don't want to think about how much that tax will be if the government is paying for everyone's healthcare.

Squeak: I had a friend who lived in France for several years and has nothing bad to say about nationalized healthcare, at all. At any rate, our current system needs a major overall. For-profit healthcare just doesn't make sense.

How about we copy France's nuclear and health care systems, they seem to be on the ball.

Well, it looks like they goy caught doing this and will have to remedy it. Four hours for non-emergent is not bad.
At least you are in an ambulance.
In the US, your insurance company will not cover 100 percent of your costs and may refuse to pay completely, then you have to pay. If you cant, then you may lose your house.

This is where people who dont understand socialized medicine get all upset. The society has to share the resource, and critical patients go to the front.
I'm in Canada, and a few years back I had chest pains. I went to the hospital and I was hooked up to a cardiac ICU bed and monitors in under 3 minutes when I told them the problem.
A year later, I had a broken bone in my hand. I waited almost 4 hours before I got treated. See how that works?
It's called Triage. I am willing to wait with some discomfort if there is a heart attack in front of me.
IN the end, I paid nothing for my treatment. Everyone gets treated here without worrying about the cost.
I dont think Americans could have this system though. The US is more about the "me", than the community, and the big pharma and insurance companies pay big bucks to maintain control.
I think that Canada should have a service fee though, say 20 bucks. Lots of people go to the hospital and use ambulances because they are lonely or have nothing else better to do. If it cost the same as going to a movie at least, that would stop some of the abusers. The US should think of that if they do manage to pull off socialized medicine. That's the weak link for sure.

SpacePunk: It makes perfectly good sense if you are the one making money on it. It makes perfectly good sense if you like telling people "How much is your life worth to you?"

France is a socialist country. The US is a republic. If you want to turn to socialism, you should really push for a Constitutional Amendment stating that every American has a right to free health care. Until then, the federal government simply doesn't have the power to do this.

If socialized health care is so overwhelmingly popular, I don't see why we would have a problem putting it through the Constitutional Amendment process.

Squeak: I had a friend who lived in France for several years and has nothing bad to say about nationalized healthcare, at all. At any rate, our current system needs a major overall. For-profit healthcare just doesn't make sense.

I spent some time in the Toronto area of Canada several years ago. The Canadians I was working with told me that if you need a band-aid, go to a Canadian hospital, if you need major surgery or care, go to the States.

Canada heath care for all would work if it were not for the government that refuses to provide full funding.

so what difference does it make if you wait in the waiting room or in the ambulance? In the ambulance you can be treated; I'd rather be there than in a waiting room.

1. ERs have to treat everyone who walks through their doors.
2. ERs lose money hand over foot.
3. Hardly anyone working in an ER these days wants to be there.

/4. Fabulously expensive health care system in this country that no one has the power to fix SUCKS rocks.

devildog123

I don't want to think about how much that tax will be if the government is paying for everyone's healthcare.

You're paying for it already in the form of increased costs at the ER, except that we could be doing it more cheaply if we weren't using the ER to do it.

I mean, honestly-- do you think it's sane to need an extra job to cover the cost of treating dehydration? It was only extravagantly expensive because somebody has to foot the bill for the non-payers.

devildog123: ...I don't want to think about how much that tax will be if the government is paying for everyone's healthcare.

The average person is estimated to pay less in taxes than what would typically be paid between insurance and co-ops.

Arthur Jumbles: How about we copy France's nuclear and health care systems, they seem to be on the ball.

They are. They're among the greenest nations on Earth and have what is rated as among the greatest healthcare.

sarcastrophe: France is a socialist country. The US is a republic.

France is also a republic, and the current President Nicholas Sarkozy defeated the socialist candidate Segolene Royal at the last election.

I am fortunate in having both "socialist" and "private" medical care, I prefer to use the former. Yes sometimes there are queues, but I personally have a moral objection to medicine for profit in the same way I would with policing for profit.

mrbach: Well, it looks like they goy caught doing this and will have to remedy it. Four hours for non-emergent is not bad.
At least you are in an ambulance.
In the US, your insurance company will not cover 100 percent of your costs and may refuse to pay completely, then you have to pay. If you cant, then you may lose your house.

This is where people who dont understand socialized medicine get all upset. The society has to share the resource, and critical patients go to the front.
I'm in Canada, and a few years back I had chest pains. I went to the hospital and I was hooked up to a cardiac ICU bed and monitors in under 3 minutes when I told them the problem.
A year later, I had a broken bone in my hand. I waited almost 4 hours before I got treated. See how that works?
It's called Triage. I am willing to wait with some discomfort if there is a heart attack in front of me.
IN the end, I paid nothing for my treatment. Everyone gets treated here without worrying about the cost.
I dont think Americans could have this system though. The US is more about the "me", than the community, and the big pharma and insurance companies pay big bucks to maintain control.
I think that Canada should have a service fee though, say 20 bucks. Lots of people go to the hospital and use ambulances because they are lonely or have nothing else better to do. If it cost the same as going to a movie at least, that would stop some of the abusers. The US should think of that if they do manage to pull off socialized medicine. That's the weak link for sure.

Brought a tear to the eye.

Seriously, just how it should be.

Just like you said, the US mentality is all "me," oh noes please don't raise taxes so everyone can have the privilege of healthcare... that would be TERRIBLE!!!

WFern: The average person is estimated to pay less in taxes than what would typically be paid between insurance and co-ops.

Tell me the last time a government "estimate" came anywhere near the reality. . . I'll be waiting.

Arthur Jumbles: How about we copy France's nuclear and health care systems, they seem to be on the ball.

I'm all for copying their nuclear program, it is one of the few things I agree with the French on. Unfortunately, the same people in this country who are all for government health care all hate nuclear power.

buzzvert "in the UK you get free or low-cost treatment. "

Sure you do! if you don't die waiting outside hospital, or have 8 months to schedule a heart exam, or 8 years to schedule a transplant.

You like it so well there? Good! How about we pass a law that says you can't schedule surgeries in this country if you are covered by a health care plan in another... you'd be ok with that, right?

aCiD99: Brought a tear to the eye.

Seriously, just how it should be.

I want to know who all the Canadians are who tell whiny tales of woe to folks like Scotty425. No one I know has ever complained about the health care they receive for free in this country. Is there a sub-population of Canadians that long for an American system?

steevmit: France is also a republic, and the current President Nicholas Sarkozy defeated the socialist candidate Segolene Royal at the last election.

Having lived in France for a bit, I assure you, it is socialist as compared to the US. Their employment laws, healthcare, energy, telecoms, and retirement plans are obviously socialist. Their system works because they are permitted to govern in that form.

In the US, our Constitution does not allow this. This is not a role for federal government under our current contract with the government. If the people think this should be a role of federal government, they should go through the process of amending the Constitution. Until then, it's just another example of the US federal government overstepping its role and violating its contract with the people.

mrbach: I dont think Americans could have this system though. The US is more about the "me", than the community, and the big pharma and insurance companies pay big bucks to maintain control.

Do people know why meds cost so much in the US? Because we are subsidizing all of the countries that make laws demanding that the stuff be practically given away.

I know a guy who works as a researcher at Phizer. He has worked on 12 projects, only one of which actually brought a drug to market. However, several of his other projects led to research that went on to create other lifesaving drugs. The money that is made in the US goes to funding research. They have to jack up the price here, because no other country wants to pay their fair share.

devildog123

Tell me the last time a government "estimate" came anywhere near the reality. . . I'll be waiting.

Tell me the last time treating some deadbeat's flu in the ER was cheaper than treating it via a primary care physician?

What sort of rational thought process answers the question "What is the cheapest way to treat the poor?" by sending them all to the Emergency Room?

If you're the sort who thinks we simply shouldn't treat the poor, well... that's at least a logically sound viewpoint. But arguing that socialized healthcare wouldn't be an improvement over EMTALA is just silly.

Andrael: Sure you do! if you don't die waiting outside hospital, or have 8 months to schedule a heart exam, or 8 years to schedule a transplant.

Yes, we do get free treatment. And we also have the option to pay in this country for private medical treatment, like you guys do. Dying outside a hospital and waiting eight months for an examination... seriously mate you have been brainwashed if you believe that.

sarcastrophe: Their employment laws, healthcare, energy, telecoms, and retirement plans are obviously socialist. Their system works because they are permitted to govern in that form.

I'd agree with that, they are more socially geared than US versions, but they are permitted to govern in that form because that's what the people want. If they didn't, the people would vote otherwise.

Arthur Jumbles: How about we copy France's nuclear and health care systems, they seem to be on the ball.

As much as I hate to admit it those are two things the the French got right.

BTW you "socialised medicine doesn't work!" people should note that every other industrialised nation has a working system in place and most pay less for better overall care. Admittedly, Britain hardly has the best system amongst those but that's not the fault of universal healthcare.

Now I'm not really concerned whether or not the US actually chooses socialised medicine or not but the US is going to have to make a decision. The US is currently trying to by both socialised and private at the same time and doing neither well.

devildog123: Do people know why meds cost so much in the US? Because we are subsidizing all of the countries that make laws demanding that the stuff be practically given away.

Do you seriously believe that any country can make a law forcing a pharmaceutical company to sell its product for lower than market prices? In Canada, the provision of drugs is not even socialized (except for the poor or seniors, same as the US). I assure you the only first world that corrupts the fair market for pharmaceuticals is the US government. They do this by enacting bills in which they pledge not to use their massive purchasing power to reduce drug costs for seniors or the poor. These bills are essentially written by the pharmaceutical companies and then supported by "liberals" like Hillary Clinton.

devildog123

After my discharge from the service, while I was in college, I gave blood, then worked out the next day. Got bad dehydration and went to the emergency room. Got treated, got a big bill. Talked to the hospital, and went on a payment plan. I took an extra job to pay for it

Kudos for giving blood, sorry about the epic fail. I mean... wow.

steevmit: Dying outside a hospital and waiting eight months for an examination... seriously mate you have been brainwashed if you believe that

I bet he got it from your own news media:

BBC: Doctor exposes heart wait deaths

Link (new window)

The Sunday Herald: India offers cure for UK waiting lists; Bid to treat patients on NHS

Link (new window)

How about that, it took me less than 2 minutes to find 2 articles.

buzzvert:
Yes- I should have clarified- in the UK you get free or low-cost treatment. In the US, you either have to fight the insurance companies for every dollar, or run from the creditors, if you're poor.

You should have written that it is heavily subsidized by taxpayers. I mean it isn't free. I'm not arguing good or bad, it's just that it isn't free.

/PS how is the VAT working out for you?

devildog123: I know a guy who works as a researcher at Phizer. He has worked on 12 projects, only one of which actually brought a drug to market. However, several of his other projects led to research that went on to create other lifesaving drugs. The money that is made in the US goes to funding research. They have to jack up the price here, because no other country wants to pay their fair share.

That guy you know lied to you.

Drug companies, including Phizer, spend twice their research money on marketing. Marketing is only effective in countries where people can pick and choose their own medicine, i.e. the US.
It's not the rest of the world that makes the drug companies poor, it's the US, with all the advertising they need.

Besides that, there are very few countries in the world that don't pay full price for medicine, and what they do pay is still more than the cost of manufacturing, so the drug companies don't actually lose any money selling at these lower prices.

Mayhem of the Black Underclass: You should have written that it is heavily subsidized by taxpayers

It is less subsidized than socialized health care in the US. In the US you pay for socialized health care, you just don't get it.

devildog123

How about that, it took me less than 2 minutes to find 2 articles.

Sure, if you ignore the fact that you could *also* go pay for healthcare from a private doctor, just like in the US. You appear to be good at ignoring things, though.

Andrael: How about we pass a law that says you can't schedule surgeries in this country if you are covered by a health care plan in another... you'd be ok with that, right?

Everyone knows you need $10 million worth of health insurance if you're going to the US.

/Well, everyone I know, knows.

Meh. Last year it took me over 12 hours to get stitches because I made the mistake of going to a ghetto hospital. Face it. Medical care sucks in America, too.