The longer it is chaos, the better chance the oil companies have of getting a share of the oil instead of the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds getting it.

"Oktober Surprise"

incompetence ≠ deliberate planning.

goeniegoegoe: incompetence ≠ deliberate planning.

Explain the deal again with those two british commandos that got busted out of a Basra prison with tanks after they were caught in a car loaded with explosives, shooting Iraqi police, while dressed as Arabs?

Oh, and here's a link, in case that incident has slipped down the memory hole. And another one (pops).

It took them this long to figure that out?

HowlingFrog: Explain the deal again with those two british commandos that got busted out of a Basra prison with tanks after they were caught in a car loaded with explosives, shooting Iraqi police, while dressed as Arabs?

England ≠ US

SilentStrider: England ≠ US

No, England != US. England + US = Coalition. Do you believe that our forces aren't involved in the same activities? Think about it. The longer the Iraqis fight against each other, the longer it will take them to unite and throw our asses out. These skirmishes are to our advantage, and in no way affect the permanent bases that we've built there.

So, which is it? Mismanaged or deliberate. Can't have it both ways.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by George Bush.

whyworry: So, which is it? Mismanaged or deliberate. Can't have it both ways.

Why not?

whyworry: So, which is it? Mismanaged or deliberate. Can't have it both ways.

Diliberately mismanaged?

HowlingFrog: whyworry: So, which is it? Mismanaged or deliberate. Can't have it both ways.

Why not?

Mismanaged = incompetent
Deliberate = competent

whyworry: So, which is it? Mismanaged or deliberate. Can't have it both ways.

The managers and spooks that ran the Vietnam War would like a word with you. Remember, once cut loose in a war, CIA and DIA have almost no oversight in how they conduct ops, nor are they under the same command structure as the military. This is obvious when one reads the declassified stories of ops in Vietnam.

So, yes...You can have both, and there are probably text books to teach operatives how to do this. In fact, I know there was one that taught the Vietnam era spooks how WW2 OSS operatives did it.

Read this:

OSS: The Secret History of America's First Central Intelligence Agency (pops)

skink: Remember, once cut loose in a war, CIA and DIA have almost no oversight in how they conduct ops, nor are they under the same command structure as the military.

Well damn. Now who can I blame?

Yes, because that's exactly what a careerist brigade commander trying to pick up his first star wants on his Officer Evaluation Report. Complete anarchy and heavy casualties in his Area of Operations.

Idiots.

whyworry: "Why not?"

Mismanaged = incompetent
Deliberate = competent

I like chocolate and vanilla icecream mixed together.

Please explain why deliberate acts of strategical sabotage cannot be carried out in the course of a sadly mismanaged war?

It's partially generous application of your "common sense" black/white "logic" that got us into this mess in the first place. Indeed, it's infested the mind of this nation.

whyworry: Well damn. Now who can I blame?

Cheney and Rumsfeld still works, for me.

I found this very enlightening and scary:

PBS Frontline: The Dark Side (pops)


Pretty much confirms all the other reading I have done over the decades, and fits the pattern of U.S. behavior in most conflicts since WW2...Although it does paint C.I.A. as something of an innocent dupe, which I find hard to swallow.

Maybe they should have thought of that before 9/11!

HowlingFrog: No, England != US. England + US = Coalition. Do you believe that our forces aren't involved in the same activities? Think about it. The longer the Iraqis fight against each other, the longer it will take them to unite and throw our asses out. These skirmishes are to our advantage, and in no way affect the permanent bases that we've built there.

then give examples of the US specifically fomenting the problems instead. Using an example involving British troops does nothing to prove the point.

HowlingFrog: It's partially generous application of your "common sense" black/white "logic" that got us into this mess in the first place. Indeed, it's infested the mind of this nation.

I'm just tired of hearing all the "I Blame Bush" crowd. One headline has him as being a bungling idiot and the next has him as the mastermind of a vast conspiracy. So, call my thinking black/white if you like but I don't believe that both things can be true.

Now I understand that this article is not an example of the type of headline that I just mentioned (ha beat you to it) but it is indicative of showing us a complex smoke and mirrors effort that could hardly be headed by a bungling idiot.

skink: I found this very enlightening and scary:

Haven't made it through much of it yet, but damn.

SilentStrider: then give examples of the US specifically fomenting the problems instead. Using an example involving British troops does nothing to prove the point.

Two eyewitnesses in Samarra (pops).
Remember that nobody claimed responsibility for blowing up the Golden Dome Mosque, which was what touched off the sectarian violence.

whyworry: but it is indicative of showing us a complex smoke and mirrors effort that could hardly be headed by a bungling idiot.

whyworry: Haven't made it through much of it yet, but damn.

But the Idiot's trusted minions and advisors? Oh, yeah...I can see that for sure.

By the way, it is hard for me, as well. Lifetime Republican voter. Voted for Obama.

/My dad is spinning in his urn

whyworry: HowlingFrog: It's partially generous application of your "common sense" black/white "logic" that got us into this mess in the first place. Indeed, it's infested the mind of this nation.

I'm just tired of hearing all the "I Blame Bush" crowd. One headline has him as being a bungling idiot and the next has him as the mastermind of a vast conspiracy. So, call my thinking black/white if you like but I don't believe that both things can be true.

Now I understand that this article is not an example of the type of headline that I just mentioned (ha beat you to it) but it is indicative of showing us a complex smoke and mirrors effort that could hardly be headed by a bungling idiot.

Bush makes the decisions? I thought he was just a puppet.

whyworry:
Now I understand that this article is not an example of the type of headline that I just mentioned (ha beat you to it) but it is indicative of showing us a complex smoke and mirrors effort that could hardly be headed by a bungling idiot.

The Iraq war was planned by people who are masterminds of lies and manipulation, clearly not foresight and military practice.

They were brilliant in the manipulation and deceit necessary to get us into Iraq, but bungling idiots in its execution.

It is possible to be both.

skink: By the way, it is hard for me, as well. Lifetime Republican voter. Voted for Obama.

Where did the Republicans go? I don't mean you, I mean who is out there actually standing for the things Republicans used to stand for?

Sleeping Monkey: They were brilliant in the manipulation and deceit necessary to get us into Iraq, but bungling idiots in its execution.

It is possible to be both.

I can agree with that. Well put.

Sleeping Monkey: The Iraq war was planned by people who are masterminds of lies and manipulation, clearly not foresight and military practice.

They were brilliant in the manipulation and deceit necessary to get us into Iraq, but bungling idiots in its execution.

It is possible to be both.

This.

goeniegoegoe: incompetence ≠ deliberate planning.

In most things, Occam's Razor rules pretty well, but in this case, I think that deep corruption on the part of the US and her contractors is a much simpler explanation than just plain incompetence. There are just a few too many folks in the intelligence community that actually DO have their shiat together to just say, "We're too dumb..."

That and a few too many reports that refute that the White House wasn't aware of potential difficulties.

Obvious tag wins everything.

This thread looks like a job for....conspiracy theorists!

Yes, and it's making Dick a lot of cash ...
so shut up or he'll shoot you in the face

To be fair, the USA deliberately sowed disorder 50+ years ago for Operation Ajax (new window).

whyworry: Where did the Republicans go? I don't mean you, I mean who is out there actually standing for the things Republicans used to stand for?

I think they all retired when Bush the Elder lost.

I seriously don't know...My mom, more pro-life as the years go by, continues to vote R. Most of her friends, as well.

I have just gotten out of touch with everybody since Bill Clinton proved such a disappointment...and I see very little difference between Hillary and McCain. I always liked John McCain, but when he panders to the same crowd that wants to ban abortion and teach Creationism in schools, I shake my head in shame.

To be clear, I would vote for McCain before Clinton, but would have to hold my nose to do it. The only candidate left in this race that has a prayer of working effectively with the other side is Obama. And really, what can it hurt to have a President that is respected and admired by folks?

i see mohammed is wearing his tinfoil turban today.

/it wouldn't surprise me if this were true

They should just ask us to leave. We'll pull up all the military bases and fortification we've built up over the last few year, right?

skink: To be clear, I would vote for McCain before Clinton, but would have to hold my nose to do it. The only candidate left in this race that has a prayer of working effectively with the other side is Obama. And really, what can it hurt to have a President that is respected and admired by folks?

It seems like it would be a given that if the Dems put up Clinton then they would be handing the election to McCain - but stranger things have happened.

We've been saying this for a long, long time. Disruption is key to the US forces remaining in the area.

Occham's razor would suggest this.

Control_this: The longer it is chaos, the better chance the oil companies have of getting a share of the oil instead of the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds getting it.


Honestly I don't think we went into to Iraq to secure the oil for our own use or for the Oil companies to sell. At least not for now. down the road maybe but the real reason went in is keep the oil in Iraq out of the world's oil supply. Look how lame the efforts to increase production of oil in Iraq have been since we occupied the country. If that was our priority that stuff would be pouring out of Iraq. The Oil Companies want that oil to stay in the ground. Our "friends" the Saudis and OPEC want that oil to stay in the ground. Between that and all of the chaos the price of oil has skyrocketed. Who benefits? Bush and Cheney's friends in Big Oil companies. That's why they want us to stay in Iraq. The longer we are there, the longer the chaos continues, the longer that oil stays in the ground, and the longer oil companies profit from high oil prices.

whyworry: I'm just tired of hearing all the "I Blame Bush" crowd. One headline has him as being a bungling idiot and the next has him as the mastermind of a vast conspiracy. So, call my thinking black/white if you like but I don't believe that both things can be true.

That would be because very few (if any) Bush-bashers actually accuse him of being any kind of a "mastermind". Hell, that would be giving him credit for an intellectual capacity that even HE admits to lacking. "The Decider"? I severely doubt that he's given much of a hands-on decision-making role in anything more critical than picking out a necktie to wear each morning.

Still, there's this little oath that he's taken a couple times now, something about preserving/protecting/defending the Constitution. (To the best of his ability... which is debatable.)

So is he personally complicit in the outrages of his administration? No-- he's just a salesman: Gets on teevee and tries to stay on-message while selling us his ADMINISTRATION'S agenda.

He utterly believes in his product... but in no way does he BUILD it. That's where the true Bush-bashing outrage lies-- in his stupid unswerving lack of ACCOUNTABILITY. The plane keeps crashing over and over and over and he keeps trotting out the same old line from his insane marketing/R&D department.

Name me any private-sector company where he'd still be CEO after such a similarly disastrous performance.

\337 days, 15 hours, 11 minutes

EwoksSuck: Honestly I don't think we went into to Iraq to secure the oil for our own use or for the Oil companies to sell. At least not for now. down the road maybe but the real reason went in is keep the oil in Iraq out of the world's oil supply. Look how lame the efforts to increase production of oil in Iraq have been since we occupied the country. If that was our priority that stuff would be pouring out of Iraq. The Oil Companies want that oil to stay in the ground. Our "friends" the Saudis and OPEC want that oil to stay in the ground. Between that and all of the chaos the price of oil has skyrocketed. Who benefits? Bush and Cheney's friends in Big Oil companies. That's why they want us to stay in Iraq. The longer we are there, the longer the chaos continues, the longer that oil stays in the ground, and the longer oil companies profit from high oil prices.

Whole lotta' THIS. Well said.

9/11, an inside job.

IraqisAmericans accuse the US militaryBush administration of deliberately sowing disorder so that they can stay in Iraq for as long as possible. "They ensure that chaos and terrorism continues by all possible means"

yagottabefarkinkiddinme: 9/11, an inside job.

yagottabefarkinkiddinme!

farking politicians.

/yes - that means your guy too

yagottabefarkinkiddinme: 9/11, an inside job.

IraqisAmericans accuse the US militaryBush administration of deliberately sowing disorder so that they can stay in Iraq for as long as possible. "They ensure that chaos and terrorism continues by all possible means"

Yes, because no one in the Middle East can point to the US destabilizing a regime on the request of a corporate interest and the installation of a dictator friendly to our interests. Especially not Iran. Oh, that would be CRAZY TALK...

dervish16108: To be fair, the USA deliberately sowed disorder 50+ years ago for Operation Ajax (new window).

Yes, and that was ALSO about oil. And when our installed puppet is given the bum's rush, the Iranians held some hostages, and we reacted in outrage at nerve of those Terrorists(TM). "OH, 1979! TURRISTS!!!1"

helix400: This thread looks like a job for....conspiracy theorists!

And when some Farkers grow up and say farewell to their mom's basement, they may get out in the world and learn that the world of filthy rich men is conspirational by nature.