Religion flamewar in 3...2...1....

/My God has a bigger dick than your God!

It is sort of a problem for a country who so prizes freedom and tolerance when their belief in these things leads them to allow in a significant population who do not believe in the same ideas of freedom and tolerance.

Pim Fortuyn?

By the way, whatever happened to that guy?

Right on.

Destructive and retarded? That'll be a bombing.

I'm no fan of religion. I have first hand seen its destructive power. Especially with Islam I've seen how it can be used to keep people down. But this type of mentality in Europe is dangerous. Sorry for godwining the thread but this run parallel with Nazism.

"All across Europe, the new breed of right-wing populists are trying to revive their political fortunes by appealing to anti-Muslim prejudice."

What's sad is that this is now acceptable. It would be a shame if we go through another holocaust.

So? Isn't that what tolerance is about? You can put up w/ someone, even like them, on a personal level even though you disagree with their beliefs or POV.

klymen: I'm no fan of religion. I have first hand seen its destructive power. Especially with Islam I've seen how it can be used to keep people down. But this type of mentality in Europe is dangerous. Sorry for godwining the thread but this run parallel with Nazism.

"All across Europe, the new breed of right-wing populists are trying to revive their political fortunes by appealing to anti-Muslim prejudice."

What's sad is that this is now acceptable. It would be a shame if we go through another holocaust.

Somehow I don't see the muslims going quietly, if it ever came to that.

A TV addict with bleached hair who adores Maggie Thatcher...

Stopped reading there. The guy's clearly a dick.

Red Shirt Blues: Somehow I don't see the muslims going quietly, if it ever came to that.

Would it matter? Going quietly or going yelling " AHLALA LA LA LA LA", they'll be going

Darius Harris

Yeah, thread might be over, if it was about religion vs religion. But it is about cultures against other cultures. Surely, Geert is no stranger to xenophobia, but like he has said, his problem is with other cultures, not just with the people. People being black, brown, white or yellow is not the case, if the cultural heritage is similar (like people from ex-colonies, etc)

The case is that people moving in from "strange places" will not adapt themselves and assimilate in to the populace, but instead they alter the culture of their new home. Of course, some cultural mix might be OK, but there are limits. And just because a few million immigrants move in that is not a good enough reason to turn old european cultures in to something completely different.

/Well, of course than can be said of the Mayflower bunch aswell :/
//Yes, I know I ended that in a Pythonesque way

WorldCitizen: It is sort of a problem for a country who so prizes freedom and tolerance when their belief in these things leads them to allow in a significant population who do not believe in the same ideas of freedom and tolerance.

There's only two things I can't stand in this world. Those who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.

BobtheFascist: So? Isn't that what tolerance is about? You can put up w/ someone, even like them, on a personal level even though you disagree with their beliefs or POV.

This. He lacked basic civility and tact, but it's largely accurate. I feel the same about Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc.

FTA:
...he wants the 'fascist Koran' outlawed in Holland, the constitution rewritten to make that possible...

...Dutch iconoclasm, Scandinavian insistence on free expression, the right to provoke are what drive him, he says...

Yet another asshole who thinks freedom of speech means "You are free to say anything as long as I don't object to it".

klymen: It would be a shame if we go through another holocaust.
Many reasons why that won't happen.

"I don't hate Muslims. I hate Islam"
Note that this quote isn't from Wilders, but the headline. But if it accurately portrays what this guy thinks, I would consider it problematic.

The idea is that, sure he don't hate the person, but still something that is core and integral to their being. After all, an overwhelmingly important aspect of the definition of Muslim is someone who follows Islam.

It's like not hating the black man, but hating the blackness. (I couldn't find the actual Uncle Ruckus line).

There is a difference between critiquing something and an outright hatred that bleeds through to extreme policy decisions like having the "constitution rewritten to make that possible, all immigration from Muslim countries halted". This guy's politics firmly associates him with the latter.

Darius Harris: 'Christians are just as bad!'

'The crusades!'

Christians lost the Crusades.

'The abortion bombers!'

About nine people killed. Actually animal rights activists have committed more terrorist bombings on American soil than anti-abortionists and neo-nazis COMBINED!

'Fred Phelps!'

He is also a Democrat.

'Witch burnings!'

None in America.

'The Inquisition!'

None in America.

/Thread is now over

Actually Muslims have committed more murders against people of other faiths than Christians. Most Christian murders have been Catholic-Protestant in nature.

"The Hindu Holocaust"

Mr. Xhin: Lump Christianity in there as a 'retarded religion,' and I'm in.

As much as I am not a fan, Islam is like Christianity's retarded little brother. Much like Christianity is Judaism's little brother with downs.

Galwran: Yeah, thread might be over, if it was about religion vs religion. But it is about cultures against other cultures.

No, sorry - thread is over. The Canadians pronounced mass culture to be dead according to an earlier thread (new window).

Damnhippyfreak: It's like not hating the black man, but hating the blackness.

Please, define "blackness" for me.

Damnhippyfreak:

It's like not hating the black man, but hating the blackness. (I couldn't find the actual Uncle Ruckus line).



Praise white Jeeesus!

JQPublic
Not to argue too hard but there are some ladies that used to live Salem that would like a word with you on one of your points.

AkaranD: JQPublic
Not to argue too hard but there are some ladies that used to live Salem that would like a word with you on one of your points.

NOT one of them was burned. Nineteen of them were hanged, one was crushed under stones, four died in jail natural causes.

/you've been served. Do not try that again.

Oh, well when you put it like that.

CtrlAltDelete
Pim Fortuyn? By the way, whatever happened to that guy?

I take it that was a joke. If it wasn't - they killed him.

JQPublic: Christians lost the Crusades.

Japan also lost WW2.

So the Dutch have Republicans too?

Counter_Intelligent: JQPublic: Christians lost the Crusades.

Japan also lost WW2.

The New England Patriots lost the Super Bowl.

John Kerry lost the 2004 election.

/Losers lose, that's why they are called losers. Reality is a zero-sum game.

Ancient religions are primitive. We're as successful as we are because we've successfully marginalized the backwards religious types who'd hold us back.

I don't hate scientologists, i hate scientology.

Is that also a problematic position? Do i have to accept that retarded ideology too?

When did this idea come about that all ideologies have to be respected?

milk_plus

You win.

If Muslims have a problem with this statement, they should endeavor to prove him wrong.

Oh too late they already started rioting and burning stuff (possibly killing people?) over a cartoon.

milk_plus: Ancient religions are primitive. We're as successful as we are because we've successfully marginalized the backwards religious types who'd hold us back.

Bacteria are primitive. We're as successful as we are because we've successfully marginalized the backwards parasitic types who'd hold us back.


/same thing.

JQPublic

that's a true statement. Think humans lived as long as we do today before we started using anti-bacterial soap prior to say... surgery?

JQPublic: milk_plus: Ancient religions are primitive. We're as successful as we are because we've successfully marginalized the backwards religious types who'd hold us back.

Bacteria are primitive. We're as successful as we are because we've successfully marginalized the backwards parasitic types who'd hold us back.


/same thing.

Bacteria evolve and change with time as new challenges from the environment reward those most adapted to meet those challenges. Obeying outdated ancient cultural rules from people as far back as the bronze age and fighting with each other over minutia is nothing like nature.

New religions (Scientology, Mormonism, Alien Cults) are scams. Old religions are old scams made by primitive people. There is no magic.

I'm kind of surprised that there isn't more of a flamewar over this. I guess most people agree on the main points?

Islam breeds hatred
Nevertheless, this guy is a complete douche.

milk_plus: JQPublic: milk_plus: Ancient religions are primitive. We're as successful as we are because we've successfully marginalized the backwards religious types who'd hold us back.

Bacteria are primitive. We're as successful as we are because we've successfully marginalized the backwards parasitic types who'd hold us back.


/same thing.

Bacteria evolve and change with time as new challenges from the environment reward those most adapted to meet those challenges. Obeying outdated ancient cultural rules from people as far back as the bronze age and fighting with each other over minutia is nothing like nature.

New religions (Scientology, Mormonism, Alien Cults) are scams. Old religions are old scams made by primitive people. There is no magic.

Religions also evolve, just like nature. Most modern religions are "fanfics" of older religions. Even Judaism ripped off the the Sumerians. Today's Mormons are riding on the coattails of Christianity.

JQPublic:

Bacteria are primitive. We're as successful as we are because we've successfully marginalized the backwards parasitic types who'd hold us back.


/same thing.

Yea, well, what about archaea? No one ever talks about farking archaea.

fizzix_is_fun:
I'm kind of surprised that there isn't more of a flamewar over this. I guess most people agree on the main points?

Islam breeds hatred
Nevertheless, this guy is a complete douche.
I take offense to his comments. I think he is blatantly xenophobic. He doesn't like Muslims, and wants to prohibit freedom of religion. I don't understand how people aren't going apeshiat over this. You don't blame the whole religion over issues you have with a small group of its followers. Forbidding the building of houses of worship, the Qur'an - the farking holy book of the religion - and immigration from Muslim lands reeks of xenophobia and hatred. And how this guy is taken seriously, I don't know.

3 guesses what his FARK handle is....

It's about religion becoming a culture.

The Dutch have their culture, which is very tolerant. The problem for them is that many muslims, who have a more intolerant culture, have moved to The Netherlands and are interfering with the tolerance of Dutch culture. (This isn't limited to The Netherlands by the way) The question is, if one is so intolerant, why move to a place like The Netherlands, just stay in an Islamic country.

It's like treating a cancer, the Dutch need some extensive cutting and chemo to save their country and way of life, and they have the right to do so. The irony is they have to be intolerant to do so.

France, you're next....

Hitler.

Aw, ****, I just couldn't hold it in any longer!

JQPublic: milk_plus: JQPublic: milk_plus: Ancient religions are primitive. We're as successful as we are because we've successfully marginalized the backwards religious types who'd hold us back.

Bacteria are primitive. We're as successful as we are because we've successfully marginalized the backwards parasitic types who'd hold us back.


/same thing.

Bacteria evolve and change with time as new challenges from the environment reward those most adapted to meet those challenges. Obeying outdated ancient cultural rules from people as far back as the bronze age and fighting with each other over minutia is nothing like nature.

New religions (Scientology, Mormonism, Alien Cults) are scams. Old religions are old scams made by primitive people. There is no magic.

Religions also evolve, just like nature. Most modern religions are "fanfics" of older religions. Even Judaism ripped off the the Sumerians. Today's Mormons are riding on the coattails of Christianity.

That's the problem with Islam or any fundamentalist faith, it doesn't really change over time. Putting aside the ridiculous stories (Noah's Ark, creation stories, Jonah and the whale) and you just have a poorly written philosophy book.

The deal with religion is people *hate* saying, "I don't know". Inventing stories to explain things their primitive minds couldn't grasp wouldn't be so bad except we get stuck with them and have to live with the consequences of ancient bigotry, sexism, racism.

Sounds about right.

schatzie: The question is, if one is so intolerant, why move to a place like The Netherlands, just stay in an Islamic country.



People go through the trouble of immigrating to maximize their own political and economic opportunity, not to conform to someone else's, whether familiar or not.

/Of course, if you're going to compare Muslims to "cancer," I wouldn't expect you to think of something that intuitively obvious anyway....

The form of Islam that SOME Muslims are importing into the Netherlands is an ideology. It is an ideology that is against some basic tenants of Dutch culture. It is an ideology that does not support freedom of speech. It does not support equal rights for women. It does not support the legality or existence of homosexuality. It supports some rather harsh controls on society and harsh punishments for violating those rules. The extreme PC crowd cries "Nazis" when people even question if the Dutch should allow immigrants who abide by this ideology into their country. However, let's turn the tables on this a bit. If the ideology in question of immigrants was indeed openly fascist and the large group of immigrants coming in were openly members of a neo-Nazi party, would the Dutch be out of line in wanting to restrict the immigration of neo-Nazis into their country?

Religions are a symptom, not the problem. The fact is human beings are greedy, weak, and stupid, and they need things to prop up their psyches. Outlawing religion will not change this, and it won't stop people from squabbling over resources and influence.

There does seem to be a very fundamental difference between the results of Muslim immigration into Europe and Muslim immigration into the US. Muslim immigrants into the US generally are or become better educated than the general US population. They generally become successful members of society and not ideological fundamentalists. In Europe, it seems that generally Muslim immigrants become the poorer, less educated underclass. They tend to have a larger population if ideological fundamentalists.

The questions are, why is this?

Is it that the base immigrant population is different? It's more difficult to get to the US from Muslim regions, so perhaps the Muslim people making it are making by and large coming in legally. And thus, coming in by playing the US immigration rules which favor the more educated, affluent immigrants. With populations such as the Moroccan immigrant population, is it that the are coming in largely illegally and thus not screened out based upon the more successful members of society as most modern countries base their legal immigration requirements? Thus, the Muslim population entering Europe is less educated, poorer, and thus more prone to fundamentalism and less open to new cultures?

Or does the US just simply better at integrating new immigrants into our more diverse society?

Or is it (it's nearly always a combination of things in human activities) a combination of these and other forces?

Jeez people, there are moderate Muslims, you know.

I'm not personally a practicing Muslim but there are plenty of people in my family who are, and they (women included) smoke, drink, walk about in bikinis (the women only of course), and so on.

I wouldn't say Islam is totally misunderstood however. It does have a lot of problems and too much militancy and this is reflected in Europe, where people feel disillusioned, for whatever reason. However, many moderate Muslims aren't the people who emigrate to Europe because they have good jobs and security where they live. Like my friend says, if you want Turkey to get into the EU (I'm Turkish), you need to get together all the teachers in Turkey and send them to Europe and educate some of the Turks there because they are what Europeans see and judge all of Turkey on. Some people can't even believe I'm Turkish because I'm so "modern".

I live in Europe now and I see plenty of moderate and secular Muslims. People are completely justified in wanting others who don't respect democracy to leave, but wanting to outlaw the Koran? That doesn't seem very democratic to me.

/Please don't say "But Turkey is different."
//I know plenty of moderate Arab and East Asian Muslims who worship in the privacy of their homes.