I'm not sure why they're pushing for this. I can't imagine any scenario where they'd be able to get the delegates seated without a revote.

And we are surprised at this because...?

Not going to happen. So sayeth Nanci Pelosi (pops), the highest elected Democrat in the land ATM.

Don't like it, Michigan and Florida? Tell your betters to follow the farking rules next time.

They don't and shouldn't count, period.

Calvin Coolidge: Not going to happen. So sayeth Nanci Pelosi (pops), the highest elected Democrat in the land ATM.

Given her refusal to bring a vote for the FISA bill, and not acting like a shrill for Hillary, it's been a good week for Pelosi. Finally she's becoming less useless.

Mr. Xhin: Let Florida and Michigan have their primaries again... at the end of the primary season. Then they can count.

Why? The only reason Hillary wants thier delegates to count is so she can take the lead back from Obama. This has nothing to do with disenfrachising the voters of Michigan and Florida.

Let me just start out by calling bullshiat. I know politicians are hypocritical liars but this would take the cake if they allowed the delegates that the DNC stripped and Hillary, in violation of their policies, campaigned for uncontested.

However, the obvious solution is to do what they did in 1801, if the delegates are tied, vote one prez and one VP. It worked for Jefferson and Burr right?

Any takers on who Clinton will kill in her duel in 2012?

I hope that MI and FL are counted as they are. The fallout would be art.

Longtime Lurker: Given her refusal to bring a vote for the FISA bill, and not acting like a shrill for Hillary, it's been a good week for Pelosi. Finally she's becoming less useless.

Maybe she got laid.

Longtime Lurker: Calvin Coolidge: Not going to happen. So sayeth Nanci Pelosi (pops), the highest elected Democrat in the land ATM.

Given her refusal to bring a vote for the FISA bill, and not acting like a shrill for Hillary, it's been a good week for Pelosi. Finally she's becoming less useless.

Yeah but give her time, the democrats always end up disappointing us.

/Obama 08

kingdombuilderceo: Question: Could Obama run as an independent if she did something that bad?

And if he did, would he have to resign his Senate seat?

kingdombuilderceo: Question: Could Obama run as an independent if she did something that bad?

He'd split the vote and McCain would win. Three-way races aren't so good unless there's a run-off vote.

cltbuilder: kingdombuilderceo: Question: Could Obama run as an independent if she did something that bad?

And if he did, would he have to resign his Senate seat?

Most likely, he will have to give up his seat, and also the die-hard stupid left DNC base will not vote for him so he will have to primarily base his electorate on independents and republicans and I don't think he will have enough of them.

SeismicJizzer: Most likely, he will have to give up his seat, and also the die-hard stupid left DNC base will not vote for him so he will have to primarily base his electorate on independents and republicans and I don't think he will have enough of them.

True. I wonder what the DNC would have to say about that? His campaign started with his speech at the 2004 convention. It'd be a slap in the face. So, they can either screw him over, or the wife of the last Democratic President. Tough choices. I thought the Republicans had it bad.

I wonder if Hillary is going to bow out when it's clear she doesn't have a chance. Desperate moves like this proves she could care less about the Democratic process. Anything to win is what he had the last 7 years.

cltbuilder: kingdombuilderceo: Question: Could Obama run as an independent if she did something that bad?

And if he did, would he have to resign his Senate seat?

Yes, he could run as an independent (But won't).
No, he wouldn't need to resign his Senate seat (But would likely have to leave the Democratic party, kinda like Joe Lieberman's status now)

But Obama wouldn't do it. Better to run against President McCain in 2012.

/I hear Hillary's new firewall is going up in Puerto Rico

McCain won't make it through a whole term. I'll be surprised if he makes it to the inauguration.

He wouldn't have to give up his seat, but he'd likely have to leave the party. As pointed out, however, a three-way race favors McCain.

No wonder the Dem party is looking for a ways to distance itself from these two campagning tools.

Between Hillary's crying spells, and Obama's fainting supporters, this whole apocalypse needs way more Waaambulance.

Just link to the video clip for a good laugh.

Longtime Lurker: Calvin Coolidge: Not going to happen. So sayeth Nanci Pelosi (pops), the highest elected Democrat in the land ATM.

Given her refusal to bring a vote for the FISA bill, and not acting like a shrill for Hillary, it's been a good week for Pelosi. Finally she's becoming less useless.

Here's hoping the democratic party brings the heat hard for election season. They let a lot of crap fly to keep the Republicans looking like the party o' evil. If they want to change from the puss out party to the party o' good they need to STFU and GBTW.

Then here's hoping Obama becomes president and makes them KEEP working.

Meanwhile, Ickes is running around saying that no matter what the outcome of the primaries, that's irrelevant, Hillary's winning it with the superdelegates (pops)

How's that for a giant F*** you to the voters?

If Clinton is CHOSEN by the super delegates or the DNC to be the nominee, McCain will win in a landslide

FTA; Link (new window)

kingdombuilderceo: When in doubt, he can always whip this out..

His people were whipped and tortured for profit.

I think winning a few arguments by referencing that might just make it a little less than even.

Migaloo: FTA; Link (new window)

Oh, and it couldn't possibly be because sometimes people faint when they're in large crowds in the hot sun with no breeze. It must be scripted.

For the record, I fainted at a Dan Quayle campaign stop in '96 and it had nothing to do with the power of his rhetoric, it was because I made the mistake of wearing jeans on a day that quickly got hot. I'm sure I'm not the only one who ever fainted that year, but there was no YouTube then.

rynthetyn: Migaloo: FTA; Link (new window)

Oh, and it couldn't possibly be because sometimes people faint when they're in large crowds in the hot sun with no breeze. It must be scripted.

For the record, I fainted at a Dan Quayle campaign stop in '96 '92 and it had nothing to do with the power of his rhetoric, it was because I made the mistake of wearing jeans on a day that quickly got hot. I'm sure I'm not the only one who ever fainted that year, but there was no YouTube then.

FTFM

rynthetyn: Migaloo: FTA; Link (new window)

Oh, and it couldn't possibly be because sometimes people faint when they're in large crowds in the hot sun with no breeze. It must be scripted.

For the record, I fainted at a Dan Quayle campaign stop in '96 and it had nothing to do with the power of his rhetoric, it was because I made the mistake of wearing jeans on a day that quickly got hot. I'm sure I'm not the only one who ever fainted that year, but there was no YouTube then.

Admit it, you were too hot for Quayle and the body needed to shut down.

I'm gonna lay out a few thoughts of my own:

*This has been the most widely-participated in presidential primary season is a quite a long time. Record numbers of voters are showing up, and from a pretty broad spectrum of demographics.

*This support is accompanied by an enormous amount of media coverage, to a certain degree, a great number of average citizens are fairly certain about the lay of the political landscape within the democratic party.

*A majority of Obama's supporters are young, and *much* younger than Hillary's supporters.

*Most democrats are still a little irked by winning the popular vote in '00 and losing the election.

What does this mean?

Should the Convention decide to basically ignore the popular vote, and instate Hilary as the nomination at the will of so-called superdelegates... Well, I think you're gonna see some pretty pissed off people. If we approach the convention, and Obama is ahead in pledged delegates, expect his supporters to be everywhere at the convention. He has an amazing amount of young blood amped for the guy.

I think you'd see a bunch of very, very, very pissed off kids at the convention. Even if Obama decided to not fight it, and roll with it (something I actually suspect he might do, if it came down to it), I don't he'd have much stopping power.

This whole situation really hinges on a few extremely wobbly supports. Hillary has a *ton* of support within the party because of her old-school cred, and she's hedging on people being so pissed off at the GOP that she'll win. Everyone really knows this is probably her best chance. People within the party are going to be reluctant to 'betray' her because of that clout; if Obama isn't a sure thing to win, there's a hell of a lot less incentive to support him due to inevitable Hillary backlash. Another support comes down to the age divide now rigidly apparent in the democratic party, as young people are generally the most vocal support of Obama, while middle-aged and older are the most vocal for hillary (Not saying this is actual demographic support, just the media face of their core support).

It comes down to this: The Democratic party could catastrophically splinter over this issue. Not saying it will... saying it could. The Dem's need this young blood to continue what is generally considered a progressive agenda; if youngsters feel abandoned by the party, they aren't likely to become Republicans overnight; instead, they'll probably align themselves to political cynicism even more than before. A profound malaise which could seriously hurt all of American politics for a good long while, as only the wingnuts would continue to function at their frothy best.

/This was waaaaay too long.

rynthetyn: Migaloo: FTA; Link (new window)

Oh, and it couldn't possibly be because sometimes people faint when they're in large crowds in the hot sun with no breeze. It must be scripted.

For the record, I fainted at a Dan Quayle campaign stop in '96 and it had nothing to do with the power of his rhetoric, it was because I made the mistake of wearing jeans on a day that quickly got hot. I'm sure I'm not the only one who ever fainted that year, but there was no YouTube then.

pre-super tuesday CNN had a live shot of 2 hillary supporters going down within 30 seconds of each other... given the geriatric nature of her supporters, I'd say it happens more on her side.

Longtime Lurker: pre-super tuesday CNN had a live shot of 2 hillary supporters going down

Stopped reading right there.

InternetLOL: Longtime Lurker: pre-super tuesday CNN had a live shot of 2 hillary supporters going down

Stopped reading right there.

Me too.

/Brain bleach, please

if it comes down to FL and MI being essential to picking someone, push back the primary schedule and give them several weeks AT THE END to re-campaign in MI and FL. This whole thing gets me so incredibly pissed off... with no one campaigning and voters aware that the primaries counted for nothing, it doesn't even remotely resemble a fair election. I see a rift in the party if somehow Hillary gets the nomination, but I hope that when she doesn't, this will just make her completely hated and ineffectual for the rest of her term in the Senate.

I'm on a few Hillary meetup group e-mailing lists just for lulz.

Here's the kind of crap I'm getting in my inbox lately from the Hillary ppl:

Listening to the pundits on MSNBC and other cable news outlets, you might get the impression that Floridians want to be disenfranchised by those in power who seek to strip us of our delegates to the Democratic National Convention. In fairness, there is a vocal minority in Florida who for self-serving political reasons has begun to push for a second vote. However, the majority of Florida Democrats on all sides recognize that something more fundamental than Hillary vs. Barack is at stake in Florida. In this nation, when the candidate we support loses an election, we do not "re-vote" until we get the desired outcome. Florida has already voted in the 2008 primary election cycle.

Hell, let them do a re-vote. She will lose by at least 20 points in Michigan and probably 8-10 in Florida. Then we won't have to hear from her again.

On the other hand, if she is nominated via shenanigans, there will be riots. All over the place. And I will happily join in them until the DNC listens to reason.

Nicely put Aeonic_Blue.

I'm going to quote AaaPha, from this thread, since he summed up how I feel about this campaign (being a foreigner myself):

Would it be so bad to have a President that people actually, you know, "Liked"? Not being American I don't know, but I think us UKites have the monopoly on being perpetually jaded, we're better at it. It used to be nice to have an America around that actually liked itself, and I don't mean the horrible jingoistic weirdness, I mean the old-school positivity. We used to think that was kinda cool. Obama reminds me of that

The profound political malaise you refer to would be felt abroad too. This campaign is being keenly watched more than any other recent one I can remember, for what it's worth.

kingdombuilderceo: Question: Could Obama run as an independent if she did something that bad?

He could, but he wouldn't.

Unlike Clinton, Obama is a party-faithful Democrat.

Hindmost: This campaign is being keenly watched more than any other recent one I can remember, for what it's worth.



Yeah. We have to. We've learned our lesson. We are damaged goods. George Bush raped us at the prom, and we haven't been able to look at a limousine or a corsage with out going fetal and weeping ever since.

Echoic: I'm not sure why they're pushing for this. I can't imagine any scenario where they'd be able to get the delegates seated without a revote.

I know why they're pushing for this. I don't know why they're getting ATTENTION over this garbage.

***

Does anyone else note the irony that Florida and Michigan pushed their primaries forward and got them cancelled, when in fact this year they might have actually counted for something, regardless of the date?

This would be chronically unfair making a primary count for nothing so that certain people do not participate, suddenly changing their mind.

If anything, they should give Florida a new vote.

Aeonic_Blue: Hillary has a *ton* of support within the party because of her old-school cred, and she's hedging on people being so pissed off at the GOP that she'll win.

Not really. Pretty much all her support can be found amongst the supers she already has. If they were going to back her because she's Hillary Clinton, they largely would have already.

The Supers aren't going to go any way other than the way the voters go. Don't worry about it.

I am so tired of this premature whining about superdelegates (re: "OMG backroom dealz!!! evil!!"); if you are concerned about that possibility before there's even a strong likelihood of it coming to pass, please slow your roll and STFU, for now. The situation's gotten to this for 2 related reasons: the primary season's order of operations, and a Democratic party that's still too evenly divided. If we Dems weren't too pansy to agree upon any candidate by now, the superdelegate stage of the process would be superfluous. Since the voters' choice hasn't yet been determined, our possible tie-breakers might have a chat so we can keep the party going. (Frankly, the basic concept of the superdelegate makes some sense: why should non-Democrats have a significant role in deciding whom the party nominates later this year? So long as outsiders can meddle, some party elders should keep watch.) By contrast, if there had already been a candidate who'd wrapped up all pledged delegates needed for the goal by now, the party bosses should STFU and orient their support and plans around that winner.

EverWatcher: (Frankly, the basic concept of the superdelegate makes some sense: why should non-Democrats have a significant role in deciding whom the party nominates later this year? So long as outsiders can meddle, some party elders should keep watch.)

It's going to get really interesting in a few weeks when Hillary starts muttering about having lost Texas because of meddling Republicans, and talking about the party's duty to redress that loss.

(Do you have to be registered Democrat to vote in the Ohio Democratic primary?)

I guess Hillary's getting pretty desperate nowadays if she wants to count primaries that involved no competition.

/Yeah I liked Calvinball too when I was a young'un. Grow up, Hill.

This is what will happen: The Clintons will pull enough strings and twist enough arms to get the Michigan and Florida delegates seated, without a revote. They will then call in every last chip they have in the Democratic party, and get enough supers to take the nomination.
Meanwhile, on the Republican side, Huckabee will hang on stubbornly, and when it comes to the convention will still be refusing to cooperate. Romney will die in a tragic plane crash, and when 100,000 rabid Paulistas show up at the convention making all sorts of insane demands, partly to defuse the situation and partly to punish Huckabee (who by now he'd like to strangle), McCain chooses Paul as his running mate. He trounces Hillary in November, and, two months after his nomination, drops dead.
At this point, the Federal government goes into gridlock. The legislature refuses to consider any actions Paul wants taken, and he refuses to sign any bills they submit. Everybody panics.
The troops, fed up with this shiat, just pack up and come home from Iraq, and nobody notices, not even the Iraqis.
Around this time, the entire nation of China converts to Scientology, and buys California. Arnold goes from being Governor to being official spokesperson, and gets a fat endorsement deal.
Meanwhile, Western Europe and the U.K. convert to Islam, and go under Sharia law. By some weird convolution of trade offs and back room deals, the Pope ends up chief Imam of the Wahabist sect, and immediately declares a jihad on all the other sects of Islam.
Then, it is learned that a rogue geneticist, working in secret in the remote higlands of the Philipines, has perfected human cloning, and has begun flooding the world with clones of Imelda Marcos.
And from that point on, it's pretty much a crapshoot.

Obama: "Just Words??"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKfwz3NnSlY (new window)

Louder And More Dissonant:

(Do you have to be registered Democrat to vote in the Ohio Democratic primary?)

I don't think so. I registered to vote a few months back and nowhere did it ask my party affiliation.

Louder And More Dissonant: EverWatcher: (Frankly, the basic concept of the superdelegate makes some sense: why should non-Democrats have a significant role in deciding whom the party nominates later this year? So long as outsiders can meddle, some party elders should keep watch.)

It's going to get really interesting in a few weeks when Hillary starts muttering about having lost Texas because of meddling Republicans, and talking about the party's duty to redress that loss.

(Do you have to be registered Democrat to vote in the Ohio Democratic primary?)

No. When you show up you just tell them if you want the Democratic, Republican, or independent ballot.

Ohio has open primaries. You just show up and ask for the a certain parties ballot. I did so in 2004, and I did so in early voting this year.

Aeonic_Blue: Should the Convention decide to basically ignore the popular vote, and instate Hilary as the nomination at the will of so-called superdelegates... Well, I think you're gonna see some pretty pissed off people

So the fine rules say
1. FL and MI don't count
2. Superdelegates can vote any damn way they see fit.

The Clinton side would like to see Rule 1 erased. The Obama side would like to see Rule 2 erased. It's nice to know the two sides have agreed to be equally hypocritical.