Love or hate Israel, if there's something we've been consistantly known for, is showing that Russia really produces crap that can't stand its own on the battlefield

/not subby

Tatsuma: Love or hate Israel, if there's something we've been consistantly known for, is showing that Russia really produces crap that can't stand its own on the battlefield

/not subby

With the exception of the AK-47, of course. But everyone has those things these days.

Putin is cute.

Nashi is even more cute.

They all make me laugh at their rage against the machine. And the 21st century.

/Suck it, borscht-boys

The only Russian weapons that Israel destroys are 30 year old tanks which are not properly maintained, with undisciplined crews.

The Pantsir S-1 system that Israel allegedly jammed during their air raid was not yet operational, as per the opinion of the weapons designer.

Sir Vanderhoot: Tatsuma: Love or hate Israel, if there's something we've been consistantly known for, is showing that Russia really produces crap that can't stand its own on the battlefield

/not subby

With the exception of the AK-47, of course. But everyone has those things these days.

Perfect Rifle for a poorly trained conscript who doesn't understand how too aim. Cheap, not to accurate and has automatic fire. That is why none of the Western Militaries have adopted them. Israel Based the Galil off of its operating system and added acuracy to its strong suit.

klebs89: The only Russian weapons that Israel destroys are 30 year old tanks which are not properly maintained, with undisciplined crews.

The Pantsir S-1 system that Israel allegedly jammed during their air raid was not yet operational, as per the opinion of the weapons designer.

If I'd designed a weapons system that got skullfarked the first time it saw live duty, I'd be making excuses too. I've yet to see anyone without a vested interest in the system say it lives up to the hype.

Headline.
Excellent.

Sir Vanderhoot: With the exception of the AK-47, of course. But everyone has those things these days.

An AK? Seriously? These are shiat. The only reason that they are popular is because they are cheap and you can basically hit the walls, drop them in the sand, throw them in the pool, pick it back up and start shooting (without any accuracy) immediatly after that.

klebs89: The only Russian weapons that Israel destroys are 30 year old tanks which are not properly maintained, with undisciplined crews.

Oh please. For such a line of bullshiat, you have to be either a russian, or working for them. That's ridiculous.

Love or hate Israel, if there's something we've been consistantly known for, is showing that Russia really produces crap that can't stand its own on the battlefield what matters is strategy, discipline, and thinking on your feet. There have been several times in Israel's history where they had been out-manuevered (Syria in the Golan, Egypt in the Sinai, to name a few) but the commanders on the field could only put into operation their planned manuevers. Once it came time to improvise, they stalled and Israel gained the initiative.

/ftfy

FreddyCalhoun: /ftfy

Man, I think I have all of six posts to my name, and even I know better than to try to one-up Tatsuma where loving Israel is involved.

Tatsuma
Which specific Russian systems that are new has Israel ever engaged in combat?

Wasted Pixels
Systems take months to achieve operational capability. Syria was in possession of it for about 2 weeks when the Israelis attacked them.

Hezbollah also engaged in guerrilla warfare with the IDF, attacking from well-fortified positions. These attacks by small, well-armed units caused serious problems for the IDF, especially through the use of sophisticated Russian-made anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs). According to Merkava tank program admistration, 52 Merkava main battle tanks were damaged (the vast majority by different kinds of ATGM), missiles penetrated 22 tanks, but only 5 tanks were destroyed. Hezbollah caused additional casualties using ATGMs to collapse buildings onto Israeli troops sheltering inside.


yup that sure is crap.

Vladimir Putin has announced that if NATO does not act in a manner more to his taste in future negotiations, he will take action to let them know he is not to be trifled with by unleashing an arms race

Coupla things here.

First, das Poopster isn't saying he's gonna take on the entire industrialised west with Russian built weapon systems he's threatening albeit very indirectly to stop destroying his nukes and start selling the fissionable materiel to folks who would do teh west harm if the US among others don't slow down on the installation of missile installations in the new NATO countries.

Secondly, There is a new arms race going on but it's been happening for a while now. The lesson the world has learned from Iraq and North Korea and Iran is very simple. If you have no WMD the US might possibly invade you and subsume yer economy turning you into a client state aka 'Merica's biatch. If yer building a weapons program bury it deep and hurry it the fark up. If you already have nukes? ...yer cool. No wonder everyone and their monkey wants a friggin' nuke by this time. Israel teaches us that you don't have to become a signatory of anti-proliferation agreements if you never really fess up to being a nuclear power.

Love or hate Israel?

It's an either/or thing, Tats?

Quatchi luffs Israel and recognises it's right to exist.
Quatchi hates Zionist farksticks who conspire with the Israeli MIC to overly influence the American political scene.

M'kay?

Tatsuma: The only reason that they are popular is because they are cheap and you can basically hit the walls, drop them in the sand, throw them in the pool, pick it back up and start shooting (without any accuracy) immediatly after that. they work.

FTFU

klebs89: Wasted Pixels
Systems take months to achieve operational capability. Syria was in possession of it for about 2 weeks when the Israelis attacked them.

So... the consensus around Syria was that the Israelis invaded their airspace in September to test the capabilities of a weapons system that couldn't possibly have been online? Gotcha.

Russian defense companies stand to lose literally billions if the Pantsir proves to be a failure. First they said Syria didn't even have the systems. Then admitted that Syria did, but insisted they weren't functional at the time. Then you have DEBKAfile -- who's sources are probably the people Syria wants to shoot -- saying that the system is a failure, and nothing to worry about.

The Pantsir situation right now is a lot of he-said-she-said between Russian and Israeli propaganda channels, with Syria (and Iran by proxy) probably suffering about a billion dollars worth of buyer's remorse.

Wasted Pixels

Tatsuma, for the most part, is very well-informed about the region and Israel in particular. I think he skews most of his analysis by virtue of his ultra-right wing nationalist ideology.

globalwarmingpraiser: Sir Vanderhoot: Tatsuma: Love or hate Israel, if there's something we've been consistantly known for, is showing that Russia really produces crap that can't stand its own on the battlefield

/not subby

With the exception of the AK-47, of course. But everyone has those things these days.

Perfect Rifle for a poorly trained conscript who doesn't understand how too aim. Cheap, not to accurate and has automatic fire. That is why none of the Western Militaries have adopted them. Israel Based the Galil off of its operating system and added acuracy to its strong suit.

Accuracy counts for horse manure when you are facing a volley of bullets or are cornered, what you need in dire situations is a pipe that will keep spitting lead without jamming in the general direction of the enemy. Few guns do it better than the humble AK

Wasted Pixels
The attack was on an installation that Israel stated could be involved in the making of nuclear material. It was not an attack to test the Pantsir system.

HeyHi: Hezbollah also engaged in guerrilla warfare with the IDF, attacking from well-fortified positions. These attacks by small, well-armed units caused serious problems for the IDF, especially through the use of sophisticated Russian-made anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs). According to Merkava tank program admistration, 52 Merkava main battle tanks were damaged (the vast majority by different kinds of ATGM), missiles penetrated 22 tanks, but only 5 tanks were destroyed. Hezbollah caused additional casualties using ATGMs to collapse buildings onto Israeli troops sheltering inside.

The only reason that Hizbullah were able to even make a dent in Merkava tanks is because the Israeli government cared more about the safety of Lebanese civilians than it did of IDF soldiers.

klebs89: Wasted Pixels
The attack was on an installation that Israel stated could be involved in the making of nuclear material. It was not an attack to test the Pantsir system.

Every public account of the attack is speculation. But when you have the editor in chief of the Syria Times saying, "There seems to be a consensus here that the Israelis were testing Syrian air defense systems", I'm inclined to believe that.

Wasted Pixels: klebs89: Wasted Pixels
The attack was on an installation that Israel stated could be involved in the making of nuclear material. It was not an attack to test the Pantsir system.

Every public account of the attack is speculation. But when you have the editor in chief of the Syria Times saying, "There seems to be a consensus here that the Israelis were testing Syrian air defense systemsproving Syrian Air defenses suck", I'm inclined to believe that.

FTFY

A brief examination of Middle eastern history shows a clear trend: Soviet/Russian major weapon systems tend to do rather badly compared to their western equivalents. Sure, the 'human factor' (training and institutional effectiveness) is the main reason Israel tends to stomp its Arab neighbours, but when it comes to things like the air war, there is no escaping the fact Russian technology is simply not in the same league. Of course after every war, apologists come out with all manner of reasons why that is ("the Arabs are too stupid to use Russian weapons"... "the Israelis cheated"... "They took them by surprise"... "the NEXT generation of Russian weapons will be different... "its-all-part-of-the-global-zionist-conspiracy"... or whatever)... but there is no escaping the fact that Russian weapons are cheaper than western weapons and in the end, you get what you pay for.

This will not convince anyone determined to praise Russian major weapon systems for whatever reason but all I can say is "look at the historic scorecard". Sorry, no contest.

When it comes to small arms, however, people here are selling the Kalashnikov short... the single most important thing for a combat firearm is not accuracy or stopping power or ergonomics, it is "will it go BANG when I pull the trigger, every damn time?" All other considerations come a distant second and in that respect, the AK is simply a splendid weapon.

evilhippo: A brief examination of Middle eastern history shows a clear trend: Soviet/Russian major weapon systems tend to do rather badly compared to their western equivalents. Sure, the 'human factor' (training and institutional effectiveness) is the main reason Israel tends to stomp its Arab neighbours, but when it comes to things like the air war, there is no escaping the fact Russian technology is simply not in the same league. Of course after every war, apologists come out with all manner of reasons why that is ("the Arabs are too stupid to use Russian weapons"... "the Israelis cheated"... "They took them by surprise"... "the NEXT generation of Russian weapons will be different... "its-all-part-of-the-global-zionist-conspiracy"... or whatever)... but there is no escaping the fact that Russian weapons are cheaper than western weapons and in the end, you get what you pay for.

This will not convince anyone determined to praise Russian major weapon systems for whatever reason but all I can say is "look at the historic scorecard". Sorry, no contest.

When it comes to small arms, however, people here are selling the Kalashnikov short... the single most important thing for a combat firearm is not accuracy or stopping power or ergonomics, it is "will it go BANG when I pull the trigger, every damn time?" All other considerations come a distant second and in that respect, the AK is simply a splendid weapon.

Was it Stalin that said "Quantity has a quality all its own," ?

Consider that the Russians have known for the last century that their weaponry is technologically inferior to the Western equivalent. To compensate, they designed them cheaply and simply, and then built a farkton of them. If they outnumber you 3-1, it doesn't matter if you take out two of them for every one you lose. That's the strategy they used to design Cold War tanks, planes, etc.

The countries that buy Russian weapon systems, though, can't purchase that kind of quantity needed to bridge the gap between Russian weapons and Western weapons. Throw the production power of Russia or China behind them, and those weapons would hold their own. Put them in charge of some cave-dwelling militants, and of course they'll get trashed every time they see combat.

evilhippo: A brief examination of Middle eastern history shows a clear trend: Soviet/Russian major weapon systems tend to do rather badly compared to their western equivalents. Sure, the 'human factor' (training and institutional effectiveness) is the main reason Israel tends to stomp its Arab neighbours, but when it comes to things like the air war, there is no escaping the fact Russian technology is simply not in the same league. Of course after every war, apologists come out with all manner of reasons why that is ("the Arabs are too stupid to use Russian weapons"... "the Israelis cheated"... "They took them by surprise"... "the NEXT generation of Russian weapons will be different... "its-all-part-of-the-global-zionist-conspiracy"... or whatever)... but there is no escaping the fact that Russian weapons are cheaper than western weapons and in the end, you get what you pay for.

This will not convince anyone determined to praise Russian major weapon systems for whatever reason but all I can say is "look at the historic scorecard". Sorry, no contest.

When it comes to small arms, however, people here are selling the Kalashnikov short... the single most important thing for a combat firearm is not accuracy or stopping power or ergonomics, it is "will it go BANG when I pull the trigger, every damn time?" All other considerations come a distant second and in that respect, the AK is simply a splendid weapon.

That is why I said it is the perfect weapon for a Conscript. Weapons suchs as the Stoner M-16 series are much more effective when placed in the hands of a professional soldier. The accuracy and higher quality of manufacture will be in the right hands. If the US ever goes back to a draft we will need something like the Kalishnikov because will have lost the Esprit De Corp that Make the US, and other Western Militaries so effective in combat. France is in the prccess of surrendering to this post.

klebs89 2008-02-10 04:54:11 PM
The Pantsir S-1 system that Israel allegedly jammed during their air raid was not yet operational, as per the opinion of the weapons designer.

Ah. Caught em with their Pantsir down, then.

Old & Busted: The Axis of Evil
New Hotness: Post Soviet Power Hungry Russian Dictator

"That is why I said it is the perfect weapon for a Conscript. Weapons suchs as the Stoner M-16 series are much more effective when placed in the hands of a professional soldier."

Not sure I agree though. I've just seen to many M-16 variant go wrong in the field (although I prefer it to that pox ridden harlot the L85A1). I also think the Soviets/Russians were fools to copy NATO (USA really) and go for 5.45. I think the assault rifle concept is great but 5.56 & 5.45 takes it down way too far (which is why things like the .280 British or 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 Remington SPC would be much better... and I am far from alone on that score). 7.62x39mm has much to commend it, although in this era of steadily improving body armour, it was starting to show its age.

Jubeebee: Was it Stalin that said "Quantity has a quality all its own," ?

Indeed it was.