WTF? Keith Relf? I had no idea there was a pre-Zep version.

Peaceboy:

WTF? Keith Relf? I had no idea there was a pre-Zep version.


Yeah, dig the moustache, huh? Pretty decent audio on that, too.

I've never heard the pre-Zeppelin version and overall I think it kinda sucked. Yes, there was some awesome guitar work but the vocals were horrible.

No no, no no no.

THIS (pops)

Jimmy Page stole Dazed and Confused from Jake Holmes, who wrote the song all by himself and recorded it on his album "The Above Ground Sound of Jake Holmes."

here's the wiki on it:

Holmes is perhaps best known for writing "Dazed and Confused," which was later adopted and popularized by Jimmy Page of The Yardbirds and Led Zeppelin. The song appeared on Holmes' debut, "The Above Ground Sound" of Jake Holmes. Led Zeppelin does not credit Holmes with authorship of their song. A Yardbirds live recording from french TV series "Bouton Rouge" (recorded on 9 March 1968) was released on Cumular Limit in 2000, credited as "Dazed and Confused" by Jake Holmes arr. Yardbirds[1].

It is still not widely recognized that Holmes was the author of the classic song. Page, while on tour with the Yardbirds in 1967, saw Holmes perform the song in Greenwich Village [1]. Within months, he had adapted the song for that group, and later, for Led Zeppelin. For reasons that are not entirely clear, Page claimed sole songwriting credit for the song when it appeared on Led Zeppelin's debut album. Holmes later sent Page an unanswered letter about the songwriting credits. He declined to take legal action.

radioman_: Jimmy Page stole Dazed and Confused from Jake Holmes, who wrote the song all by himself and recorded it on his album "The Above Ground Sound of Jake Holmes."

here's the wiki on it:

Holmes is perhaps best known for writing "Dazed and Confused," which was later adopted and popularized by Jimmy Page of The Yardbirds and Led Zeppelin. The song appeared on Holmes' debut, "The Above Ground Sound" of Jake Holmes. Led Zeppelin does not credit Holmes with authorship of their song. A Yardbirds live recording from french TV series "Bouton Rouge" (recorded on 9 March 1968) was released on Cumular Limit in 2000, credited as "Dazed and Confused" by Jake Holmes arr. Yardbirds[1].

It is still not widely recognized that Holmes was the author of the classic song. Page, while on tour with the Yardbirds in 1967, saw Holmes perform the song in Greenwich Village [1]. Within months, he had adapted the song for that group, and later, for Led Zeppelin. For reasons that are not entirely clear, Page claimed sole songwriting credit for the song when it appeared on Led Zeppelin's debut album. Holmes later sent Page an unanswered letter about the songwriting credits. He declined to take legal action.

Yep... and I really wrote "Whole Lotta Love."

btc9183: I've never heard the pre-Zeppelin version and overall I think it kinda sucked. Yes, there was some awesome guitar work but the vocals were horrible.

Sorry, but the only Zeppelin I can listen to is without the cat-like screechings of Mr. Plant.

/not amused

Stupid Guitar Hey. Whooze That?

pipco: Stupid Guitar Hey. Whooze That?

Eddie Phillips from the Creation, first used a bow in a rock song with Making Time, which came out in '67 I believe. Anyway, definitely before Mr.Page.

/still love Page
//but COME ON!

radioman_

I don't care who he stole it from, Mr. Page made it teh awesome.

Oops, I mean 1966

Link (new window)

Like the "gettin' the groovy on" announcer there.

Let's set the way-back machine back further in time...

Pubescent Jimmy Page TV debut with his skiffle band.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKUyHpoWnT4

Get off my skiffle.

definitely before Mr.Page.

So? Chuck Berry was playing the guitar before Eddie Phillips

Godscrack: definitely before Mr.Page.

So? Chuck Berry was playing the guitar before Eddie Phillips

Really? I didn't know that! I thought Chuck Berry was the sousaphone champion from the '38 sousaphone battle that nearly caused the Earth to rotate right off its axis!

But really, I was referencing the bow/guitar thing, unless Chuck did that before these pasty British guys. Nothing wrong with harmless trivia!

The majority of the early Zeppelin albums are "reworked" covers of many different old Blues songs.

They were taken to court many times over failure to pay royalties and such, and the courts ruled that Zepp's vast changes to the material made it uniquely their own, even if the licks and verse are identical to others.

Stupid Guitar "Oops, I mean 1966"

shiat, Jimmy ripped off of everyone didn't he. Yob.

For that great, great video Stupid Guitar I present the Monks "Monk Chant" and probably the first:

1. Banjo in rock?
2. Muti-player Eddie Van Halen twiddling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5iI0__9S1c

1965 FTW

nightlyraider: The majority of the early Zeppelin albums are "reworked" covers of many different old Blues songs.

They were taken to court many times over failure to pay royalties and such, and the courts ruled that Zepp's vast changes to the material made it uniquely their own, even if the licks and verse are identical to others.

Yeah, I mean on the one hand, it sucks that they were so blatant in their ripping off of others material, but on the other hand, those first two records are so FREAKING AWESOME!

So, I'm torn. It's best to avoid the moral conflict and go straight to Led Zeppelin 3 and turn Celebration Day up as loud as the stereo can handle!

nightlyraider: The majority of the early Zeppelin albums are "reworked" covers of many different old Blues songs.

They were taken to court many times over failure to pay royalties and such, and the courts ruled that Zepp's vast changes to the material made it uniquely their own, even if the licks and verse are identical to others.

Re-releases now feature many songs credited to Page/Plant/Dixon where they were originally listed only as Page/Plant. Props to Willy! Cool link... I had never heard this before.

Jesus. This sounds like the Murph and the Magic Tones version.

artman: Stupid Guitar "Oops, I mean 1966"

shiat, Jimmy ripped off of everyone didn't he. Yob.

For that great, great video Stupid Guitar I present the Monks "Monk Chant" and probably the first:

1. Banjo in rock?
2. Muti-player Eddie Van Halen twiddling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5iI0__9S1c

1965 FTW

Very nice, Artman, the Monks will always be that wonderful black stain on the "peace and love' perception of '60's music. Funny how it took some ex-Army guys to throw some weirdness into the garage-rock formula!

In all fairness to Page though, if I could cop that bow/guitar thing and play it in front of thousands of screaming fans, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Screw Led Zeppelin...they were the biggest ripoff artists ever. Stealing from Jake Holmes, Muddy Waters and others and taking writer credit for it.

They suck,

Stupid Guitar: "In all fairness to Page though, if I could cop that bow/guitar thing and play it in front of thousands of screaming fans, I'd do it in a heartbeat."

Indeed. It's been taken to other extremes. I remember seeing Laurie Anderson with her violin she rigged with tape heads on it and recorded magnetic tapes on the bow. Freaky stuff.

Couldn't find any examples, but here she is with another great guitarist Adrian Belew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPbv2uVY6AY

/sharkey's day

Willie Dixon "stole" most of those songs as much as Led Zeppelin did. But he did it right and copyrighted the traditionals he wrote from. Led Zep figured they could go back to the traditionals, too, but the courts said no, Willie Dixon copyrights overrule that. "Whole Lotta Love" is quite a stretch to be considered a Willie Dixon co-write.

The Jake Holmes song is an exception, though; that's the only one that was pretty much lifted whole from a non-traditional source.

artman: Indeed. It's been taken to other extremes. I remember seeing Laurie Anderson with her violin she rigged with tape heads on it and recorded magnetic tapes on the bow. Freaky stuff.

Couldn't find any examples, but here she is with another great guitarist Adrian Belew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPbv2uVY6AY

/sharkey's day

Cool stuff, have to admit, I don't know much about Laurie Anderson aside from the clips here and there that I would see on Night Flight back in the '80's (old man, I know), but I used to dig on my brother's King Crimson LP's with Adrian Belew. I loved his guitar playing, mostly cuz he could make the instrument sound so "un-guitarish".

Watching that video you linked, it kind of looks like the Talking Heads might have lifted some stuff from her, assuming that video is from the 80's and maybe before Burning Down the House and stuff like that?

Whole Lotta Love" is quite a stretch to be considered a Willie Dixon co-write.

Nonsense. Listen to the Muddy Waters song "You Need Love". It's obvious WLL was a blatant rip off.

If "My Sweet Lord" sounds enough like "He's So Fine" to go to court (and lose) then there's a case to be made for WLL.

well done subby didn't know that was played with The Yardbirds. vocals were pretty terrible, but a very cool nonetheless.

"It's NOT who does it first,it is who does it SECOND"

--- David Bowie


"A good artist borrows,a GREAT artist steals"

--- Pablo Picasso


Sorry guys but Page kicked ass!

All those folks Page "stole" from like The Creation,Bert Jansch,Holmes and all the old blues guys failed to do what Page did. Page meticulously hand assembled a seriously badass band.
Great drummer and bass player with an awesome sounding front man with incredible presence. Page also revolutionized the way guitar and drums were recorded with thunderous results.

Just like how Hendrix' version of "All Along the Watchtower" kicks Dylan's version in the ass.

Taking someone's original version of something and adding a lethal dose of win equals MORE WIN!

Another broad analogy is that I must admit that I actually enjoy listening to this band called SLEEP more than listening to classic Black Sabbath.

Sleep basically steals the de-tuned heavy riffage of the original Sabbath first four albums and stretches it out to unbearably lengthy stoned-ass jam marathons. Imagine "Sweat Leaf" or "Supernaut" going on for a solid hour! Breathtaking. Not very original but utterly awesome.

craigdamage: Just like how Hendrix' version of "All Along the Watchtower" kicks Dylan's version in the ass.

um, didn't dylan get a songwriting credit though? that means he got paid for every album sold. doxon, jansch, holmes, et al. didn't.

It's no secret that Keith Relf was a horrible vocalist, but this video really brings it on home. God, at least Jerry Garcia played guitar.

I wish I could hear Relf sing Final Countdown. Also featuring Page.

craigdamage: "It's NOT who does it first,it is who does it SECOND"

--- David Bowie


"A good artist borrows,a GREAT artist steals"

--- Pablo Picasso


Sorry guys but Page kicked ass!

All those folks Page "stole" from like The Creation,Bert Jansch,Holmes and all the old blues guys failed to do what Page did. Page meticulously hand assembled a seriously badass band.
Great drummer and bass player with an awesome sounding front man with incredible presence. Page also revolutionized the way guitar and drums were recorded with thunderous results.

Just like how Hendrix' version of "All Along the Watchtower" kicks Dylan's version in the ass.

Taking someone's original version of something and adding a lethal dose of win equals MORE WIN!

Another broad analogy is that I must admit that I actually enjoy listening to this band called SLEEP more than listening to classic Black Sabbath.

Sleep basically steals the de-tuned heavy riffage of the original Sabbath first four albums and stretches it out to unbearably lengthy stoned-ass jam marathons. Imagine "Sweat Leaf" or "Supernaut" going on for a solid hour! Breathtaking. Not very original but utterly awesome.

I dig, I think most of us like to rip on Zep because they're so famous, while being aloof to the point of galaxy-wide arrogance. That's why they're so fun to call out on matters of thievery! Doesn't take away from the brilliant and rocking stuff they did :)

And I have to agree about Sleep, I think the Dopesmoker LP is one of the truly original heavy metal records of all time. And actually, to my ears, I don't hear that much Sabbath on it, other than similarities in guitar tone. They sound like a much tighter Melvins to me. Nonetheless, freaking one hour plus of relentless riffing Nirvana, one of my favorite records!

Anywot, Zep rules, but as they say in the music biz, "Amateurs borrow, professionals steal".

/sorry for the rant
//drunk and high
///can't sleep, will put on Sleep

If you like that, I've got somethin' for you:



Sigur Ros

You are correct FlashHarry.

Hendrix did give full credit on ALL his covers.

He just really kicked ass on them.

You Zep apologists make me laugh.

Why can't you accept the fact that as a musician, Page was brilliant and revolutionary, yet as a person, he was unscrupulous scumbag? They are not mutually exclusive you know.

O.J. was a hell of a running back, too.

Led Zep made great records -- there is no denying that. (My only musical complaint about them is that Bonzo and Jonsey don't get enough credit -- to me they are that whole band.)

But you should just accept the fact that your hero took someone else's work, put his own name on it, kept the money, and fought it (and LOST) in court. Stop trying to rationalize it. You look stupid.

It doesn't make the records any less great.

You Zep apologists make me laugh.

Why can't you accept the fact that as a musician, Page was brilliant and revolutionary, yet as a person, he was unscrupulous scumbag? They are not mutually exclusive you know.

O.J. was a hell of a running back, too.

Led Zep made great records -- there is no denying that. (My only musical complaint about them is that Bonzo and Jonsey don't get enough credit -- to me they are that whole band.)

But you should just accept the fact that your hero took someone else's work, put his own name on it, kept the money, and fought it (and LOST) in court. Stop trying to rationalize it. You look stupid.

It doesn't make the records any less great.


This

"Hey look, there's Jimmy Page, the greatest thief of black music to ever walk the earth."

craigdamage: Just like how Hendrix' version of "All Along the Watchtower" kicks Dylan's version in the ass.

Do you need it pointed out to you that Hendrix did not claim authorship of that song?

That makes your analogy... umm... not one.

zappaisfrank:

Nonsense. Listen to the Muddy Waters song "You Need Love". It's obvious WLL was a blatant rip off.


Footnote on this business... see Small Faces "The BBC Sessions." Listen to "You Need Loving" recorded in early '66. Same song, down to Steve Marriott doing the drawn out "Woman... you need... LOVE----" not as long as Plant, but otherwise pretty much the same. Song as credited there? Why, "Marriott/Lane" of course. Lot of that going around...

What's with all the hating on Keith Relf? Really unnecessary. Do you guys rank on every Yardbirds song because of him, or is it just this one, because you never heard it done sans Plant?

DrBenway: zappaisfrank:
What's with all the hating on Keith Relf? Really unnecessary. Do you guys rank on every Yardbirds song because of him, or is it just this one, because you never heard it done sans Plant?

That video just seems to be a particularly bad performance, doesn't really sound like that song is stylistically suited for his voice. Other than that, he sounds fine on the records, at least to my ears.

Stupid Guitar: DrBenway: zappaisfrank:
What's with all the hating on Keith Relf? Really unnecessary. Do you guys rank on every Yardbirds song because of him, or is it just this one, because you never heard it done sans Plant?

That video just seems to be a particularly bad performance, doesn't really sound like that song is stylistically suited for his voice. Other than that, he sounds fine on the records, at least to my ears.

I think it also has to do with some of the lyrics not being the same as the Zeppelin song. It just sounds off.

My Hendrix-Dylan analogy was in regards to total ass kickage.


I was not referring to plagiarism as I think most figured out from my post. Before correcting someone I suggest comprehension first.

I think my point was fully explained by the inclusion of the Picasso and Bowie quotes.

craigdamage: "It's NOT who does it first,it is who does it SECOND"

--- David Bowie


"A good artist borrows,a GREAT artist steals"

--- Pablo Picasso

"NEVER wear a new pair of shoes in front of Bowie."
-- Mick Jagger

zappaisfrank: Stealing from Jake Holmes, Muddy Waters and others and taking writer credit for it.

In some cases people like Muddy Waters weren't exactly original either. It's like how people credit Black Betty to Lead Belly, except his recording isn't even the first recording.

grxymkjbn: craigdamage: "It's NOT who does it first,it is who does it SECOND"

--- David Bowie


"A good artist borrows,a GREAT artist steals"

--- Pablo Picasso

"NEVER wear a new pair of shoes in front of Bowie."
-- Mick Jagger

"I think Mick Jagger would be astounded and amazed if he realized to many people he is not a sex symbol, but a mother image."
-David Bowie

JubeiKibagami "Hey look, there's Jimmy Page, the greatest thief of black music to ever walk the earth."

No that would be Pat Boone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymew1nkkvCI

Stupid Guitar: The Talking Heads and Laurie Anderson were both New York musicins and like most artists inspired each other. But Laurie was (is) a musical/artistic genius.

claim songwriting credit=get publishing $$

song while with yardbirds was called I'm Confused.

Relf can sing, at times. Check out Jeff Beck-era Yardbirds.
Once a great band, with Dreja, McCarty, Samwell-Smith.

Stupid Guitar: grxymkjbn: craigdamage: "It's NOT who does it first,it is who does it SECOND"

--- David Bowie


"A good artist borrows,a GREAT artist steals"

--- Pablo Picasso

"NEVER wear a new pair of shoes in front of Bowie."
-- Mick Jagger

"I think Mick Jagger would be astounded and amazed if he realized to many people he is not a sex symbol, but a mother image."
-David Bowie

"Sometimes you can't write a chord ugly enough to express how you feel, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream."
- Frank Zappa

craigdamage: My Hendrix-Dylan analogy was in regards to total ass kickage.

I was not referring to plagiarism as I think most figured out from my post. Before correcting someone I suggest comprehension first.

I think my point was fully explained by the inclusion of the Picasso and Bowie quotes.

Nope!

The quotes you listed, all of them, refer to art as an influence on an individuals work. This was by no means the issue with Page.

Your line about Hendrix refers to a legally credited cover (which, I agree with you , totally kicks ass over the original).

Here is the line of demarcation for you:

If you are stealing IDEAS (not entire songs) then you are being influenced. All artists have done this.

If you are stealing MONEY, then that is theft. i.e. recording "Killing Floor" and putting your own name on it.

What makes Page's theft's so reprehensible was he stole those songwriting credits from guys who had nothing. He was flying around in his own jet while Muddy Waters was driving a truck delivering window blinds.

artman:
1965 FTW

For some reason your comment made me think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC4TXNlbqJg

That's Jorma Kaukonen on guitar, Janis Joplin on Vocals and Margarita Kaukonen on typewriter!

6/25/64!

1964 FTW, and Jorma puts Page to shame any day of the farking week.