I just hope this means the young charismatic democratic presidential candidate gets the nomination and then cleans up at the polls in november.


/by that I mean Obama.

You mean besides the fact that McCain is NOT going to face an incumbent and popular Democratic President? That he's NOT facing a seated Vice President in the primaries, like Dole did in '88?

The parallels only exist for someone who is pitching for another candidate in the primary race, and paid to tear at a front runner that scares the bejeebus out of the Hard Right with the idea of a President who's sat in Congress and has proven that he can work with Democrats--oh noes, he's not a Decider...

I just saw my first McCain ad a few minutes ago. He's a True Conservative who will never waiver apparently.

actually hubie, I think the comparison is apt.

With either Hillary or Obama McCain will face an energized voting base who is excited. If it is Obama, VERY excited.

OTOH, McCain won't inspire his base at all. Most of his votes will be independents or people who are coming out to vote AGAINST Hillary (if Obama gets the nod, it is a landslide democratic victory).

Was looking for Similarities in McCain, Hillary, and Dole on neoliberal economic policies/ free trade when this popped up
G.O.P. Faithful Don't Endorse Nafta (1995)
Bob Dole, in his paean to internationalism, toasts Republicans as the party of the "North American Free Trade Agreement, the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and most-favored-nation treatment for China." While my old friend may indeed speak for the Senate grandees, he does not speak for the populist rank and file.

Eighteen months after approval of Nafta, America's trade surplus with Mexico has evaporated, a $15 billion trade deficit has opened up, and hundreds of thousands of United States jobs are going south. Our $700 million Florida winter tomato industry has been ravaged, illegal immigration is up, and United States taxpayers have been put on the hook for $50 billion to our bankrupt Mexican partner.

Thirty years of GATT agreements have led to the hollowing out of America's industrial heartland, the loss of millions of United States manufacturing jobs and the collapse of the dollar against the yen and the mark. From the world's greatest creditor nation, GATT has helped to make us the greatest debtor nation in history.
...snip

To be honest, I am tired of the Rove machine doing their best to tear down folks, using their own accomplishments to seem like detriments. McCain has faced the Rove machine before, and it just disgusts me to see the man's fingerprints all over crap like this. Reminds me of the recockulousness of McCain's "illegitimate black child" specters raised by a whisper campaign, using college students and back channel "sources" to spread the patently false story.

Worse are the networks of bloggers and even actual journalists who exist only to disseminate garbage to give it appearance of truth. Even when they know the charges and "facts" are just ploys and ruses. In that, Rove certainly did a grand job in "changing the tone" Sadly, not for the better. And it's cost the party a lot of credibility over the years. We can link it, in part, to the Reagan killing the Fairness Doctrine, and now reap the "benefits" in the media. Couple it with the increasing compound nature of media services, you get what we have today.

And it's piss poor.

Aarontology: I just saw my first McCain ad a few minutes ago. He's a True Conservative who will never waiver apparently.

I saw that ad, too. It looked like it was made in Powerpoint 97.

If impotence is on the list of similarities between Dole and McCain I think that's unfair. You couldn't throw water balloon into a room full of republican men without hitting a dozen guys whose wang can't make a happy face.

Pretty much the definition of Republicanism is sexual dysfunction.

Subby, I have to agree with you. In 2000, the Republican party shafted McCain. Now they are going to let him be the Bob Dole of his generation.

Hi, I'm John - John McCain.

hubiestubert: To be honest, I am tired of the Rove machine doing their best to tear down folks, using their own accomplishments to seem like detriments. McCain has faced the Rove machine before, and it just disgusts me to see the man's fingerprints all over crap like this. Reminds me of the recockulousness of McCain's "illegitimate black child" specters raised by a whisper campaign, using college students and back channel "sources" to spread the patently false story.

Worse are the networks of bloggers and even actual journalists who exist only to disseminate garbage to give it appearance of truth. Even when they know the charges and "facts" are just ploys and ruses. In that, Rove certainly did a grand job in "changing the tone" Sadly, not for the better. And it's cost the party a lot of credibility over the years. We can link it, in part, to the Reagan killing the Fairness Doctrine, and now reap the "benefits" in the media. Couple it with the increasing compound nature of media services, you get what we have today.

And it's piss poor.

No one is bringing up how "moderate" McCain is rather extreme on international neo-liberal economic policies

McCain and Clinton are nearly indistinguishable in this regard (neoliberal int'l economic policies)

Ceph: I saw that ad, too. It looked like it was made in Powerpoint 97.

I lol'd.

Party Boy: Was looking for Similarities in McCain, Hillary, and Dole on neoliberal economic policies/ free trade when this popped up
G.O.P. Faithful Don't Endorse Nafta (1995)
Bob Dole, in his paean to internationalism, toasts Republicans as the party of the "North American Free Trade Agreement, the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and most-favored-nation treatment for China." While my old friend may indeed speak for the Senate grandees, he does not speak for the populist rank and file.

Eighteen months after approval of Nafta, America's trade surplus with Mexico has evaporated, a $15 billion trade deficit has opened up, and hundreds of thousands of United States jobs are going south. Our $700 million Florida winter tomato industry has been ravaged, illegal immigration is up, and United States taxpayers have been put on the hook for $50 billion to our bankrupt Mexican partner.

Thirty years of GATT agreements have led to the hollowing out of America's industrial heartland, the loss of millions of United States manufacturing jobs and the collapse of the dollar against the yen and the mark. From the world's greatest creditor nation, GATT has helped to make us the greatest debtor nation in history.
...snip

Pretty much why there were a fair number of Senators who didn't endorse that turd. I was glad that Snowe voted against while I lived in Maine, and proud as hell of her then. Still am, to be honest. Think she's one of the best of the GOP. Her comments before her vote on NAFTA were both stirring, and chilling in their propheticness of the results that the state, and the nation would face.

Will John McCain sing "Bomb Iran" at the GOP convention?



That would rock!!

hubiestubert [TotalFark] Quote 2008-02-02 12:19:12 PM
To be honest, I am tired of the Rove machine doing their best to tear down folks, using their own accomplishments to seem like detriments. McCain has faced the Rove machine before, and it just disgusts me to see the man's fingerprints all over crap like this. Reminds me of the recockulousness of McCain's "illegitimate black child" specters raised by a whisper campaign, using college students and back channel "sources" to spread the patently false story.

Worse are the networks of bloggers and even actual journalists who exist only to disseminate garbage to give it appearance of truth. Even when they know the charges and "facts" are just ploys and ruses. In that, Rove certainly did a grand job in "changing the tone" Sadly, not for the better. And it's cost the party a lot of credibility over the years. We can link it, in part, to the Reagan killing the Fairness Doctrine, and now reap the "benefits" in the media. Couple it with the increasing compound nature of media services, you get what we have today.

And it's piss poor.



Dude, this isn't 2000. McCain no longer gets or deserves pity points.

He spent this entire campaign pandering to the people he used to despise, selling his soul, lying, distrtorting and flip-flopping his way to the top.

He is NO different than Karl Rove this election cycle.

Don't buy into the Straight Talk express. It is more like a manure truck.

Bob Dole: Old Republican

John McCain: Old Republican

Thats some fine detective work there, Lou.

hubiestubert: ...Pretty much why there were a fair number of Senators who didn't endorse that turd. I was glad that Snowe voted against while I lived in Maine, and proud as hell of her then. Still am, to be honest. Think she's one of the best of the GOP. Her comments before her vote on NAFTA were both stirring, and chilling in their propheticness of the results that the state, and the nation would face.

McCain
Every time US went protectionist, we paid heavy price. (Oct 2007)
NAFTA has had unambiguously positive impact on US. (Mar 1999)
# Pro-NAFTA, pro-GATT, pro-MFN, pro-Fast Track. (Jul 1998)
# Voted YES on free trade agreement with Oman. (Jun 2006)
# Voted YES on implementing CAFTA for Central America free-trade. (Jul 2005)
# Voted YES on establishing free trade between US & Singapore. (Jul 2003)
# Voted YES on establishing free trade between the US and Chile. (Jul 2003)
# Voted YES on extending free trade to Andean nations. (May 2002)
# Voted YES on granting normal trade relations status to Vietnam. (Oct 2001)
# Voted NO on removing common goods from national security export rules. (Sep 2001)
# Voted YES on permanent normal trade relations with China. (Sep 2000)
# Voted YES on expanding trade to the third world. (May 2000)
# Voted YES on renewing 'fast track' presidential trade authority. (Nov 1997)
# Voted NO on imposing trade sanctions on Japan for closed market. (May 1995)
# Promote the Andean Free Trade Agreement. (May 2002)
# Rated 100% by CATO, indicating a pro-free trade voting record. (Dec 2002)

also
McCain
# People worry about corporations unduly influencing elections. (Sep 2007)
# Voted NO on repealing tax subsidy for companies which move US jobs offshore. (Mar 2005)
# Voted YES on reforming bankruptcy to include means-testing & restrictions. (Mar 2005)
# Voted YES on restricting rules on personal bankruptcy. (Jul 2001)

How else to do you expect a scumbag to pander to the same fat idiots?

Bill Frist: Dude, this isn't 2000. McCain no longer gets or deserves pity points.

He spent this entire campaign pandering to the people he used to despise, selling his soul, lying, distrtorting and flip-flopping his way to the top.

He is NO different than Karl Rove this election cycle.

Don't buy into the Straight Talk express. It is more like a manure truck.

It's more a commentary on how badly the system is broke. And I will give Reagan credit, for his vision in giving his political successors the tools to win elections, and set the stage for future wins.

But the cost for these wins is too high. In general. We've seen a gutting of the media, and the current administration's handling of the FCC has been only to exacerbate the problem. The GOP should win on principles and policy, and instead, it's become a poop flinging contest, and as someone who considers himself fairly Conservative, it disgusts me.

conversely
Obama
* End tax breaks for companies that send jobs overseas. (Aug 2007)
* Hold corporations responsible for pensions & work conditions. (Aug 2007)
* Tax incentives for corporate responsibility. (Jun 2004)
* Close tax loopholes for US companies relocating abroad. (Jun 2004)
* REAL USA Plan: Reward companies that create domestic jobs. (Jun 2004)
* Voted YES on repealing tax subsidy for companies which move US jobs offshore. (Mar 2005)
* Voted NO on reforming bankruptcy to include means-testing & restrictions. (Mar 2005)

# Enforce existing safety laws against Chinese products. (Dec 2007)
# Stand firm against CAFTA for labor & environmental standards. (Aug 2007)
# Congress subsidizes megafarms & hurts family farmers. (Aug 2007)
# People don't want cheaper T-shirts if it costs their job. (Aug 2007)
# Amend NAFTA to add labor agreements. (Aug 2007)
# Reinvest in communities that are burdened by globalization. (Jun 2007)
# Insist on labor and human rights standards for China trade. (Jul 2004)
# Fair trade should have tangible benefits for US. (Jun 2004)
# Voted YES on free trade agreement with Oman. (Jun 2006)
# Voted NO on implementing CAFTA for Central America free-trade. (Jul 200
-----

Plus, we havent even moved into McCain / Iran.

1) McCain is very popular and well-liked by just about everybody.


You are farking nuts.

He is hated by 60% of his base. He is also hated by the left and his current turn of pandering, lying and flip-flopping has put off many of his old admireres (such as myself).

Secondly, he will QUICKLY become less and less popular when the public learns he wants to keep us in Iraq for 100 years and has promised to go start more wars when he is in office.


2) With Hillary, it's just the opposite.


Clinton is both more loved and more hated than McCain. Overall, ti is a wash.


3) There's no Ross Perot this time.


Irrelevant. Dole would have lost without Perot int he race. Dole would have had to get literally every vote Perot did to win, and obviously that wouldn't have happened.

The media who has made McCain will change their tune and break him in the general election.

Party Boy: hubiestubert: ...Pretty much why there were a fair number of Senators who didn't endorse that turd. I was glad that Snowe voted against while I lived in Maine, and proud as hell of her then. Still am, to be honest. Think she's one of the best of the GOP. Her comments before her vote on NAFTA were both stirring, and chilling in their propheticness of the results that the state, and the nation would face.

McCain
Every time US went protectionist, we paid heavy price. (Oct 2007)
NAFTA has had unambiguously positive impact on US. (Mar 1999)
# Pro-NAFTA, pro-GATT, pro-MFN, pro-Fast Track. (Jul 1998)
# Voted YES on free trade agreement with Oman. (Jun 2006)
# Voted YES on implementing CAFTA for Central America free-trade. (Jul 2005)
# Voted YES on establishing free trade between US & Singapore. (Jul 2003)
# Voted YES on establishing free trade between the US and Chile. (Jul 2003)
# Voted YES on extending free trade to Andean nations. (May 2002)
# Voted YES on granting normal trade relations status to Vietnam. (Oct 2001)
# Voted NO on removing common goods from national security export rules. (Sep 2001)
# Voted YES on permanent normal trade relations with China. (Sep 2000)
# Voted YES on expanding trade to the third world. (May 2000)
# Voted YES on renewing 'fast track' presidential trade authority. (Nov 1997)
# Voted NO on imposing trade sanctions on Japan for closed market. (May 1995)
# Promote the Andean Free Trade Agreement. (May 2002)
# Rated 100% by CATO, indicating a pro-free trade voting record. (Dec 2002)

See. There we go. Go after the record. Go with facts. Go with policy. NOT the emotionally laden and easily subjective crap. That's what we need to actually see, not garbage like this article.

MFL: The media who has made McCain will change their tune and break him in the general election.

If that were the case then he'd be gone already. They were declaring his candidacy washed up before his surge in the primaries.

MFL Quote 2008-02-02 12:40:26 PM
The media who has made McCain will change their tune and break him in the general election.


Exactly!

McCain sold his soul long ago but the media has kept propping him up... until now. Over the last couple days you've already seen the start of the media really analyzing him. And come this fall you will have the left wing media who is hyped about Obama (fingers crossed) or even Hillary. A mainstream media that will tear him off his pedestal and a right wing media who has always hated him.

Dude is gonna do even worse than Dole did.

MFL: The media who has made McCain will change their tune and break him in the general election.

I think he might be able to do that himself. It's inevitable that if he is the GOP nominee you will see ads with the 100 year occupation quote.

Fart_Machine Quote 2008-02-02 12:47:15 PM
MFL: The media who has made McCain will change their tune and break him in the general election.

If that were the case then he'd be gone already. They were declaring his candidacy washed up before his surge in the primaries.


His candidacy WAS washed up though. It is really a twist of crazy fate that he is the front-runner now, and it is almost entirely due to things outside of his control.

Namely, the fact that the rest of the field canablized itself.

McCain is hated by most of the republican base, but the republican base never got its shiat together to choose between Thompson, Huckabee, Romney or Rudy. So the conservatives kept splitting their votes amongst those while McCain eeked out a decent amount of old people, war vets and moderates and then coupled that small group with enough independents to win.

There is a reason McCain won in NH, a state that allowed independent voters.

In any head to head match up, he would have lost probably every state. McCain vs Rudy, McCain vs. Romney, McCain vs. Thompson.... but luckily he got to let them destroy each other until his momentum was built.

on top of that, he was lucky enough to be in the republican party where many primaries are winner takes all.

Romney would win this election easily if it wasn't for the winner take all thing.

Bill Frist:
He is hated by 60% of his base.

Your ass. Let me show you the number you've pulled out of it.

Aarontology I think he might be able to do that himself. It's inevitable that if he is the GOP nominee you will see ads with the 100 year occupation quote.

That quote doesn't mean a whole lot to the Republican base. It's red meat for democrats but that's about it.

McCain has been a media darling since he made it mission to be a thorn in Bush's side after 2000. He's been broke for 6 months and the media has carried much of the water for him. They will turn on him once he's up against a democrat. You can bet the farm on that.

hubiestubert: ...See. There we go. Go after the record. Go with facts. Go with policy. NOT the emotionally laden and easily subjective crap. That's what we need to actually see, not garbage like this article.

I appreciated your earlier post, and decided against a "this," and just took it to the next step.

The republicans know the Dems have far too much class to "Swiftboat" a war hero. They also know that they themselves have no class and would attack Obama incessantly based on his race and lies about his past. But they would prefer to not be labeled as racist. Attacking Hillary? Sean Hannity's wet dream. So I see where they're going with this.



Obama '08/
It's our only chance

Calvin Coolidge Quote 2008-02-02 12:55:46 PM
Bill Frist:
He is hated by 60% of his base.

Your ass. Let me show you the number you've pulled out of it.


Your farking ass dude, show me "the numbers" that back up your absurd claim that "everyone loves mcCain."

Dude is widely despised by his own party. If you don't know this, that is your own political ignorance speaking. I mean, pick up a farking newspaper once in awhile.

If Huckabee would drop out Romney would win big on Super Tuesday. But Huck's a crusader or something...

MFL Quote 2008-02-02 12:56:12 PM
Aarontology I think he might be able to do that himself. It's inevitable that if he is the GOP nominee you will see ads with the 100 year occupation quote.

That quote doesn't mean a whole lot to the Republican base. It's red meat for democrats but that's about it.


The important part is that it is red meat for independants. McCain has NO shot at winning without gaining a big majority of the independants. But the ind.s are going to want to hear about 100 years of a failing war.

MFL Quote 2008-02-02 12:59:42 PM
If Huckabee would drop out Romney would win big on Super Tuesday. But Huck's a crusader or something...

Exactly. Even at this late state, even with all his momentum, McCain will only win because the two remaining candidates are cannibalizing each other.

MFL: That quote doesn't mean a whole lot to the Republican base. It's red meat for democrats but that's about it.

Well no, the Republican base wouldn't be affected by it. I was thinking more of how the independents will take it. If it comes down to Obama/McCain in November, that's where the election will be decided.

Party Boy: hubiestubert: ...See. There we go. Go after the record. Go with facts. Go with policy. NOT the emotionally laden and easily subjective crap. That's what we need to actually see, not garbage like this article.

I appreciated your earlier post, and decided against a "this," and just took it to the next step.

I'm just hoping that we can get the party BACK to actual Conservative values, as opposed to this sort of Rah Rah Boy mentality that looks at winning as the goal, instead of sane policy.

Aarontology Quote 2008-02-02 01:01:23 PM
MFL: That quote doesn't mean a whole lot to the Republican base. It's red meat for democrats but that's about it.

Well no, the Republican base wouldn't be affected by it. I was thinking more of how the independents will take it. If it comes down to Obama/McCain in November, that's where the election will be decided.

I really can't envision any scenario, barring McCain capturing Bin Laden with his own hands and hanging him on stage at a campaign rally, that McCain could beat Obama.
Will not happen in this dimension.


But in a McCain/Hillary match-up, I agree. The independents will make the election. A month ago I would have never thought Hillary could win independents... but against John "100 years of war" McCain, that could easily happen.

Where's the outrage?

Bill Frist:
His candidacy WAS washed up though. It is really a twist of crazy fate that he is the front-runner now, and it is almost entirely due to things outside of his control.

Namely, the fact that the rest of the field canablized itself.

McCain is hated by most of the republican base, but the republican base never got its shiat together to choose between Thompson, Huckabee, Romney or Rudy. So the conservatives kept splitting their votes amongst those while McCain eeked out a decent amount of old people, war vets and moderates and then coupled that small group with enough independents to win.

There is a reason McCain won in NH, a state that allowed independent voters.

In any head to head match up, he would have lost probably every state. McCain vs Rudy, McCain vs. Romney, McCain vs. Thompson.... but luckily he got to let them destroy each other until his momentum was built.

I don't really disagree with any of that, which is why I don't buy the idea that the media "made" John McCain. The media oracles had originally selected Giuliani as the GOP frontrunner with Hillary running uncontested. They've been wrong about everything.

Bill Frist: Calvin Coolidge Quote 2008-02-02 12:55:46 PM
Bill Frist:
He is hated by 60% of his base.

Your ass. Let me show you the number you've pulled out of it.


Your farking ass dude, show me "the numbers" that back up your absurd claim that "everyone loves mcCain."

Dude is widely despised by his own party. If you don't know this, that is your own political ignorance speaking. I mean, pick up a farking newspaper once in awhile.

1) I never asserted that "everyone loves McCain." Hell, I never even said that most people liked McCain.

2) I haven't provided any numbers, and you have. It's incumbent upon you to provide some basis for your 60% figure.

3) I realize that McCain is hated by diehard neocons/Bushies. It cracks me up to watch Hannity, Rush, etc. blow a gasket over him cruising to the nomination. However, I think it's safe to say that only a small minority of Republicans are going to NOT vote for McCain in the general election, especially if Hillary is the Democratic nominee. Their loathing for her overrides almost all else. If Obama is nominated, it's harder to say because he has that independent appeal.

4) McCain's biggest liability in a general election is going to be his support for Iraq and the troop surge. If things start going downhill again there, it's going to hurt him... badly. However, if things stay the same or especially if they get better (meaning fewer deaths and some modicum of political progress) then it's good for McCain.

5) McCain's VP choice is going to be a heavy factor in his ability to summon the GOP base and/or maintain the support of independents. Huckabee could energize evangelicals, but could alienate independents. At any rate, his age is going to make many people really look hard at his choice for VP.

6) I'm not sure where I'm going with this post at this point. So I'll stop.

I don't really disagree with any of that, which is why I don't buy the idea that the media "made" John McCain. The media oracles had originally selected Giuliani as the GOP frontrunner with Hillary running uncontested. They've been wrong about everything.


Oh, i guess I agree with that. I thought the implication was that the media "made him" in the sense that they built him up as some maverick straight talker (despite the fact that he flip-flops constantly and is totally dishonest) and that reputation is what helped him win.

I agree they didn't make him win by annointing him the front-runner this election or anything.

This is all the Democrats need to advertise in order to defeat the dude:

Bill Frist: I really can't envision any scenario, barring McCain capturing Bin Laden with his own hands and hanging him on stage at a campaign rally, that McCain could beat Obama.
Will not happen in this dimension.

But in a McCain/Hillary match-up, I agree. The independents will make the election. A month ago I would have never thought Hillary could win independents... but against John "100 years of war" McCain, that could easily happen.

Actually, you're right about McCain and Obama. About McCain/Clinton though... I'm pretty sure that she would be enough of a reason for the GOP base to come out in droves, and I'll bet that many independents aren't her biggest fans. And as the polls around the primaries have shown, many of these independents are new voters and people who were sick of the whole mess until Obama came along. They might just stay home if their choices are McCain and Clinton.

MFL: That quote doesn't mean a whole lot to the Republican base. It's red meat for democrats but that's about it.

Aarontology Well no, the Republican base wouldn't be affected by it. I was thinking more of how the independents will take it. If it comes down to Obama/McCain in November, that's where the election will be decided.

Good point.

I think McCain will have a harder time hanging on to his base than getting the Independant vote. Romney would be a better candidate versus Obama. McCain would do better against Hillary.

B. Obama will steal some independant voters from McCain. The Republican voter turn out might be a problem also. The only wild card with this matchup is the elderly and boomer vote. I think many older boomers and elderly democrats (Hillary supporters) may cross the party line for McCain. I don't know if the Boomers want to pass the torch just yet.

Just a thought.

Blathering Idjut: If impotence is on the list of similarities between Dole and McCain I think that's unfair...

... especially when you consider that Señor McCain gets to sleep with her:

Whether it's McCain or Romney vs Clinton or Obama, the result will be the same. The country is still so divided that both party's will rally behind their candidate; the popular vote will be extremely close and the electoral count will again go down to the wire with Ohio and/or Florida being the deciders. Neither party will win by more than a percent or two, it'll will all depend on who turns out on election day, not who's running for the office.