Well, technically this could be considered usury, which is forbidden in the Qu'ran....which means Egypt is gonna get jihadded

Step 1 - Profit
Step 2 - ????
Step 3 - Ka Boom!

Funny how people don't think about the consequences of large displacements of populations. People don't think about the stresses on a system when thousands and millions of un-incorporated people flood into an already populated area.

The chaotic situation when there are too many people and not enough resources is what causes wars, people will fight to survive and expand.

Where else is this happening in the world...anyone?

GaryPDX: The chaotic situation when there are too many people and not enough resources is what causes wars, people will fight to survive and expand.

Where else is this happening in the world...anyone?

You must be talking about all the women fighting each other to the death in order to hop into the limited space of my bed.

GaryPDX: The chaotic situation when there are too many people and not enough resources is what causes wars, people will fight to survive and expand.

Where else is this happening in the world...anyone?

The lines at Best Buy to get a Wii?

Reminds me of the guy that trucked in a bunch of generators to Southern Mississippi after Katrina and sold them at a 100% mark-up. Ended up in jail. Because thanks to our twisted view of morality, it's wrong to help people if you have a profit incentive. Yeah, it would have been admirable if he'd sold them at cost. Fact is if he'd had to choose between doing that and doing nothing, he would have done nothing, and those generators wouldn't have helped anybody.

So that's my little rant about price gouging.

/if you want people to do something, let it be profitable

Too many of them learning about the laws of Supply & Demand from pro sports fans, I guess.

I guess that when you're used to hand-outs from the World Community, things are a bit confusing when you're on your own

Tatsuma: I guess that when you're used to hand-outs from the World Community, things are a bit confusing when you're on your own

How's that $3 billion annual gift from the good ol' red white and blue?

Kettle, pot, etc etc...

bargled: How's that $3 billion annual gift from the good ol' red white and blue?

That's not a handout...that's for, um, 'protection.'

You'd have a much better point if:

A) That aid was not a very small amount of Israel's total budget
B) I didn't advocate cutting all foreign aid
C) I didn't advocate for Israel to start refusing it

Okay, now if you extrapolate this example and expand to a world view, how can people not see the coming storm, WWIII?

It's a math game, too many trying to survive on not enough.

/espresso is kickin in

"A gallon of milk, two pounds of halal goat, and a King Don? That comes to 7 pints of fresh martyr's blood. Thank you for your patronage. Please come again."

bargled: Tatsuma: I guess that when you're used to hand-outs from the World Community, things are a bit confusing when you're on your own

How's that $3 billion annual gift from the good ol' red white and blue?

Kettle, pot, etc etc...


Though to be fair, Tatsuma has said repeatedly that he doesn't support all that massive American aid to Israel. Ironically enough, his reasoning sounds remarkably like Ron Paul's.

"Where are the Arab countries that should have sent food aid immediately as soon as they heard the border was open?"

Sense of entitlement anyone?

sepuku2: Sense of entitlement anyone?

All these crocodile tears from the Arab world flowing from their eyes while saying to them "how much they care about them", how "horrible is their suffering under the Zionist Entity" and how they would "help you if we could, brothers, but the Zionist Murderers are preventing us from helping you" probably convinced the Gazans that they were in fact serious, and not full of shiat.

The hungry and desperate killing you and taking your stuff is the real invisible hand.

Tatsuma: I guess that when you're used to hand-outs from the World Community, things are a bit confusing when you're on your own

/hmm, Photobucket. I think they are the ones that post "bandwidth exceeded" pics. Oh well.

Having never lived in anything even remotely resembling a "society" or a "civilization" the Pals are gonna have a shiat ton of other nasty surprises waiting for them if and when they ever get there.

No handouts, you have to work for money with which to purchase goods.

Suicide bombing is not an effective means of conflict resolution.

("Where's Ahmed?" "Oh, he got a parking ticket yesterday so he went down to the police station to blow himself up in protest.")

Etc, etc, etc.

That's half the reason they've sat on their hands for so long.

Nobody wants to be the minister of sewage, or a janitor, or a meter maid or any of the other mundane and non-dramatic things that every society needs to keep functioning.

It's so much more exciting to always be an adrenaline junky martyr-complex zealot than it is to simply lay down your arms and embark upon the long slow boring slog that's needed to build an effective and self-sustaining society.

Don't hold your breath.

bargled: How's that $3 billion annual gift from the good ol' red white and blue?

Kettle, pot, etc etc...

Egypt gets a little less. We support friends in the mideast.

Why does Israel get the most? Israel is the only country in the entire Mideast we can count on as an ally (read that military jumping off point) when things go bad. Sucks, I don't like it, but it is certainly wise strategy.

In fairness, many of the non-jihadi Palestinians are commies.

Churchill2004

Most of the israeli right, from center-right to religious-right is against the aid.

It's the socialist left that really wants it, because it helps them free up tax money from military spending to do nothing bloated bureaucracy. Israeli military spending has stayed pretty consistent as a percent of GDP, yet taxes don't drop when american aid increases. Why? Because they plow it into all other types of socialist waste.

it's a wise investment in their view, i guess.

As far as Palestinians wanting food, where's the food aid now? Why not distribute it on the Gaza side of the border?

i lived in egypt, so im really getting a kick out of these replies...

"Where are the Arab countries that should have sent food aid immediately as soon as they heard the border was open?"

Maybe some are finally starting to get a clue.

Mubarak must be pissed since the explosives used by Hamas to turn Gaza into another Egyptian province were smuggled into Gaza with his blessings.

PC LOAD LETTER: bargled: How's that $3 billion annual gift from the good ol' red white and blue?

Kettle, pot, etc etc...

Egypt gets a little less. We support friends in the mideast.

Why does Israel get the most? Israel is the only country in the entire Mideast we can count on as an ally (read that military jumping off point) when things go bad. Sucks, I don't like it, but it is certainly wise strategy.

Israel gets the most because of the huge Israeli lobby that we have in the United States. Even though it is actually not in our best interest to keep giving the Israeli's handouts when they won't comply with our wishes, we keep doing so.

Churchill2004: Reminds me of the guy that trucked in a bunch of generators to Southern Mississippi after Katrina and sold them at a 100% mark-up. Ended up in jail. Because thanks to our twisted view of morality, it's wrong to help people if you have a profit incentive. Yeah, it would have been admirable if he'd sold them at cost. Fact is if he'd had to choose between doing that and doing nothing, he would have done nothing, and those generators wouldn't have helped anybody.

So that's my little rant about price gouging.

/if you want people to do something, let it be profitable

Jailing people who incur risk to provide needed goods and services services is the kind of thing that destroys civilizations.

Gortex: Well, technically this could be considered usury, which is forbidden in the Qu'ran

How could it be considered usury?

TappingTheVein: Mubarak must be pissed since the explosives used by Hamas to turn Gaza into another Egyptian province were smuggled into Gaza with his blessings.

Not only that, but equipment to eavesdrop on "Egyptian forces" too. Wink wink.

brookgo: Israel gets the most because

that's what they get out of the Camp David Peace Accord that Jimmy Carter engineered, treaty which also gives important amounts of money to Egypt.

Fixed that for you, so it can be, you know, accurate instead of talking points from lefty blogs with no sense of Historical perspective (or, alternatively, stormfront)

GaryPDX: Funny how people don't think about the consequences of large displacements of populations. People don't think about the stresses on a system when thousands and millions of un-incorporated people flood into an already populated area.

The chaotic situation when there are too many people and not enough resources is what causes wars, people will fight to survive and expand.

Where else is this happening in the world...anyone?

Americans standing in traffic jams on their government subsidized roads burning government subsidized gasoline?

Tatsuma: TappingTheVein: Mubarak must be pissed since the explosives used by Hamas to turn Gaza into another Egyptian province were smuggled into Gaza with his blessings.

Not only that, but equipment to eavesdrop on "Egyptian forces" too. Wink wink.

brookgo: Israel gets the most because

that's what they get out of the Camp David Peace Accord that Jimmy Carter engineered, treaty which also gives important amounts of money to Egypt.

Fixed that for you, so it can be, you know, accurate instead of talking points from lefty blogs with no sense of Historical perspective (or, alternatively, stormfront)

The idea actually was actually derived from University of Chicago Professor John Mearsheimer, who is quite the realist.

It isn't in our best interest to keep giving Israeli's shiatloads of money. It's part of the reason why we're enemies with many middle eastern countries. Being friends with Israel (no matter what they do) is just not good for our foreign policy.

brookgo: Israel gets the most because of the huge Israeli lobby that we have in the United States. Even though it is actually not in our best interest to keep giving the Israeli's handouts when they won't comply with our wishes, we keep doing so.

Israel does not need a lobby (they have one like every one else does unless you think it's about "Teh J00z"). The entire oil industry is the lobby for making sure the Mideast is accessible to US oil interests. This has been this was for a long time. Israel is a pawn in this, but a pawn with a stable, US-friendly democracy and a VERY strong military with a proven track record of defeating Arab nations. Israel has no oil. But if the rest of the mideast goes the way of Iran, you better believe the US will use Israel as a jumping off point for WW3 if necessary to secure our oil interests.

brookgo: It isn't in our best interest to keep giving Israeli's shiatloads of money.

Actually, it is. We've received more than the worth of what we gave to Israel, and today we got a steadfast ally on a short leash that is still really useful.

It's part of the reason why we're enemies with many middle eastern countries. Being friends with Israel (no matter what they do) is just not good for our foreign policy.

"Gee, Al Qaeda, Saudi Arabia and Syria don't like the fact that we're allies with Israel, I guess it's in our best interest to do what they want us to do"

Geez, a people who have been occupied, cut off from the rest of the world, denied education and services, bombed, shot, tortured, provoked and bulldozed don't understand how the "real world" works?

Color me surprised.

What Tatsuma is saying sounds a lot like what Southerners said of Northern resistance to mass movement of blacks into the North after the war: "See, they don't want them either, they should have let us keep them as slaves!"

The Pals are Israel's problem. They created the mess, let them clean it up. Fat chance that, apartheid and slow, grinding genocide will continue to be the policy of Israel. And it will be a black stain on the name of Israel which will never wash off, if it hasn't set already.

Snarfangel:

Your use of that word seems to come from that stupid song.

Churchill2004: Reminds me of the guy that trucked in a bunch of generators to Southern Mississippi after Katrina and sold them at a 100% mark-up. Ended up in jail. Because thanks to our twisted view of morality, it's wrong to help people if you have a profit incentive. Yeah, it would have been admirable if he'd sold them at cost. Fact is if he'd had to choose between doing that and doing nothing, he would have done nothing, and those generators wouldn't have helped anybody.

I totally agree. After natural disasters, we should discourage charity and encourage people to sell food and water at 10,000% markups. Those who do not work or do not have money should starve to death. Because capitalism saves lives.

Tatsuma

I read that high-up, the governments of Jordan, Egypt and SA work closely with Israeli operatives, especially against regional threats like Iran and the Islamic Brotherhood.

I briefly got to read some of these threads on this topic, where one mentioned on controlling the schadenfreude from the
pro-Israeli posters.

Frankly, this guy is right in that respect. I saw all manner of schadenfreude, classic Tu Quoques, red-herrings. But what i didnt see were posts looking at why this is bad.

Egypt is torn between obligations to Israel to control the border and domestic support for the Palestinians. Meaning, that this popular support boost is bad for Egypt-Israeli relations. The US gives Egypt loads of money to bolster Egypt's stability and for and peace with Israel.[1] Plus, Israel has special deals with Egypt for its Oil[2]. These type of domestic tensions exacerbate the problems where Egypt is torn between obligations to Israel to control the border and domestic support for the Palestinians.

Moreover, considering

Forward (Oct 2007)
Israel's foreign intelligence service, the Mossad, recently concluded that Syria is sincere in its offers to make peace with Israel in exchange for Israeli withdrawal from the Golan Heights.

The Yediot report hasn't received much attention, but it should. Last spring, the Mossad was the only dissenter among Israel's four main intelligence agencies when the other three - Military Intelligence, the Shin Bet domestic security service and the Foreign Ministry intelligence bureau - reported that Syria was serious about peace. If the Mossad has turned around, then the Israeli intelligence community is now unanimous in its view of Syrian sincerity.

The intelligence agencies believe that Syria's president, Bashar Assad, has overcome his early instability and is now firmly in command. They believe Assad wants to end Syria's isolation, join the world community and the Arab mainstream and escape its dead-end alliance with Iran. They believe Israel has a window of opportunity to make peace with its most hostile neighbor and engineer a fundamental shift in Middle East politics.

They also believe that the window won't stay open much longer. Iran, they say, is growing steadily stronger and more assertive. The longer Syria remains in its orbit, the harder it will be to break away. If Assad can't show progress through negotiations within a year or two, he'll be forced to abandon diplomacy and open fire.

The same clock is ticking on the Palestinian front. Israel is trying to negotiate peace with Palestinian Authority chairman Mahmoud Abbas, head of the nationalist Fatah movement. Few pretend that Abbas is strongly positioned to make a peace deal stick. For that matter, most Israelis doubt that their own Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has the political capital to deliver the concessions needed to make peace.

On the other hand, things are not getting better. Fatah's rival, Hamas, is not getting weaker. If Abbas can't deliver results to his people, Hamas will just keep growing. And the stronger Hamas grows, the less willing Israelis will be to take a chance.

On both fronts, Palestinian and Syrian, the road to peace is a steep, uphill climb. But the alternative is war and more war as far as the eye can see.
...snip...

And comparing that problem of growing Hamas influence with


Palestinians Still Reject Hamas Rule in Gaza
Palestinians Urge for Changes in Hamas Policies
Some Palestinians Willing to Share East Jerusalem
Olmert Has No Mandate to Negotiate, Say Israelis
Israelis Reject U.S. as Middle East Arbitrator
Gaza Residents Want Peace with Israel
you have the problem of Hamas on the rise, as mentioned in the Forward article above. Israel is moving harder to the right too.

All this schadenfreude and you have now this increased image for Hamas & Israel moving harder to the right in the Mid East now? Think this position is intractable now? Hopefully the dangerous trends dont continue.

Tatsuma: brookgo: It isn't in our best interest to keep giving Israeli's shiatloads of money.

Actually, it is. We've received more than the worth of what we gave to Israel, and today we got a steadfast ally on a short leash that is still really useful.

It's part of the reason why we're enemies with many middle eastern countries. Being friends with Israel (no matter what they do) is just not good for our foreign policy.

"Gee, Al Qaeda, Saudi Arabia and Syria don't like the fact that we're allies with Israel, I guess it's in our best interest to do what they want us to do"

Please explain why Israel is of any strategic value to the United States.

Swampthing in Korea: I read that high-up, the governments of Jordan, Egypt and SA work closely with Israeli operatives, especially against regional threats like Iran and the Islamic Brotherhood.

Yup. It's a cold relationship, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend did originate in the Middle-East. A generally little-known fact behind the Osirak bombing was the fact that Iran did gave some measures of support to Israel. It was in their interest to cripple Saddam

Tatsuma: It's part of the reason why we're enemies with many middle eastern countries. Being friends with Israel (no matter what they do) is just not good for our foreign policy.

"Gee, Al Qaeda, Saudi Arabia and Syria don't like the fact that we're allies with Israel, I guess it's in our best interest to do what they want us to do"


Stop putting words into other people's mouths. First implying that this guy reads stormfront, then this.

Take a deep breath and calm down a second here. Seriously.

What is being said is that unconditional support for Israel (or atleast the outward impression of such) may not be in our best interest. There is a serious discussion there, if you can handle it.

brookgo: Please explain why Israel is of any strategic value to the United States.

During the Cold War, Israel was the only anti-Commie force in the Middle-East, and without Israel there would have been a Soviet control of the Suez Canal, for example, and without Israel we never could have tested American weapons versus Soviet weapons in the Field, gathered the data, and create even better weapons. And we saved billions of dollars when Israel simply was able to get all the specs of the new Russian tanks, so we didn't have to spend so much money on research. And that's just a small fraction of the help given by Israel during the Cold War, and it doesn't include technology they developed on their own dime that they shared exclusively with us, etc..

A small, small portion of what they did, and we definitely got more than our money's worth tehre.

Tatsuma: brookgo: Please explain why Israel is of any strategic value to the United States.

During the Cold War, Israel was the only anti-Commie force in the Middle-East, and without Israel there would have been a Soviet control of the Suez Canal, for example, and without Israel we never could have tested American weapons versus Soviet weapons in the Field, gathered the data, and create even better weapons. And we saved billions of dollars when Israel simply was able to get all the specs of the new Russian tanks, so we didn't have to spend so much money on research. And that's just a small fraction of the help given by Israel during the Cold War, and it doesn't include technology they developed on their own dime that they shared exclusively with us, etc..

A small, small portion of what they did, and we definitely got more than our money's worth tehre.

the cold war. Its over.

Damnhippyfreak: Stop putting words into other people's mouths. First implying that this guy reads stormfront, then this.

No I didn't. I said very clearly that this kind of argument is wrong, and generally comes from lefties with a poor knowledge of the US-Israel relationship. Or, alternatively, from anti-semitic websites.

Tatsuma: brookgo: Please explain why Israel is of any strategic value to the United States.

During the Cold War, Israel was the only anti-Commie force in the Middle-East, and without Israel there would have been a Soviet control of the Suez Canal, for example, and without Israel we never could have tested American weapons versus Soviet weapons in the Field, gathered the data, and create even better weapons. And we saved billions of dollars when Israel simply was able to get all the specs of the new Russian tanks, so we didn't have to spend so much money on research. And that's just a small fraction of the help given by Israel during the Cold War, and it doesn't include technology they developed on their own dime that they shared exclusively with us, etc..

A small, small portion of what they did, and we definitely got more than our money's worth tehre.

What you just said is important. Well, this part anyway: During the Cold War.

Right, they were a valuable ally. During the Cold War at least.

Party Boy: the cold war. Its over.

Ah, I see. "I know what you've done for me, but what have you been doing lately?"

Well, Israel did a great deal to help America during the two Gulf Wars, by giving logistical support, intel and obeying America's order.

brookgo: What you just said is important. Well, this part anyway: During the Cold War small portion of what they did

It's not clear enough that I didn't list everything Israel has ever done, and that I was just giving you a few examples?

Actually, Israel was a great strategic hindrance during the Gulf Wars. We had to divert resources away to protect Israel from attack. Not only that, but if Israel actively got involved, then the ENTIRE arab population would have a ridiculously large backlash.

Tatsuma: brookgo: What you just said is important. Well, this part anyway: During the Cold War small portion of what they did

It's not clear enough that I didn't list everything Israel has ever done, and that I was just giving you a few examples?

Keep going, please.

brookgo: We had to divert resources away to protect Israel from attack.

That's not true, it was Israel that was busy protecting America and her allies.