Christians Everyone should fear a Christian nation

FTFY

I thought Christian died.

oldebayer: I thought Christian died.

hehe. He died about 67 times here on fark.

oldebayer: I thought Christian died.

No, that was Heath.

Jesus Christ that was a long article.

Oh, I do. Trust me. Because there would be a battle royale to see which 'Christianity' governs the Christian nation, and it would probably be a watery faith like Methodism or a hardline social conservatism.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

submitter: Christians should fear a Christian nation hungry lions

Fixed.

Don't you guys remember why you came here in the first place?

Chariset: Oh, I do. Trust me. Because there would be a battle royale to see which 'Christianity' governs the Christian nation, and it would probably be a watery faith like Methodism or a hardline social conservatism.

You mean there would be sectarian violence? It seems to me that I read about that happening in another theocracy in another part of the world recently.

If we were to truly become a Christian nation, in the official sense, which of these would have the final authority?

Link (new window)

Would it change with each new President? Each new Speaker? Would it be a state thing...depending on the governor's brand of Christianism? Or the Speaker/majority leader of the various state legislators?

I can't believe anyone can be so utterly fkn stupid to want state and church intermingled....

tallguywithglasseson: submitter: Christians should fear a Christian nation hungry lions

Fixed.

*snort*

You Christians really want a religious theocracy? Look at all of them in the world. See any that are stable with any personal rights? Didn't think so. You can pry my Bill of Rights from my cold, dead fingers, because you aren't getting it any other way.

/end Internet Tough Guy rant

GAT_00: You can pry my Bill of Rights from my cold, dead fingers, because you aren't getting it any other way.

Which, ironically, was written by Christians!

steelpeg: Which, ironically, was written by Christians!

Christians who would not get a single vote from modern "values voters."

Regrettably, the 2008 presidential frontrunners of both parties are ignoring Jesus' advice regarding the preferred relationship between church and state by professing-ad nauseam-their undying fidelity to the Christian Right's version of morality and its vision of our nation as their exclusive fiefdom.

....and then he mentions McCain, Huckabee, a Republican Congressman and a conservative Justice. There's no mention of any Democrats in this article at all.

It's too bad he had to frame his valid argument with the broad "everyone's wrong" argument instead of pointing the finger specifically where it belongs.

I've explained this to my rabid evangelical (Assemblies of God) parents. Whenever they went on about "teaching God's word" in the schools, I asked them if they should include the Baptist belief that tongues are a result of demonic possession. After all, most people in Arkansas are Baptists.

/yes, my parents really believe rolling around and the floor and speaking gibberish is a miracle
//though I did convince one of them to vote Libertarian

steelpeg: GAT_00: You can pry my Bill of Rights from my cold, dead fingers, because you aren't getting it any other way.

Which, ironically, was written by Christians!

The original writers, as a whole, were not Christian. Thomas Jefferson said in the Treaty of Tripoli in, I believe 1789, that the United States was not founded, and is not, a Christian nation.

Churchill2004: I asked them if they should include the Baptist belief that tongues are a result of demonic possession. After all, most people in Arkansas are Baptists.

/yes, my parents really believe rolling around and the floor and speaking gibberish is a miracle

So Pentecostals think it's a miracle, but Baptists think it's demonic possession?

Hmmm...I wasn't aware that Baptists held that belief. Is that the "official" Baptist position, or just how "most Baptists" think?

I don't know which is crazier: thinking that mumbling nonsense is a miracle, or thinking it's a sign of possession. I'd hate to be a bigot, so I'll just go with "equally nuts."

Lionel Mandrake: So Pentecostals think it's a miracle, but Baptists think it's demonic possession?

Hmmm...I wasn't aware that Baptists held that belief. Is that the "official" Baptist position, or just how "most Baptists" think?

No, it's official. It's one of the biggest points of contention between the two, and has been for more than a century.

Lionel Mandrake: I don't know which is crazier: thinking that mumbling nonsense is a miracle, or thinking it's a sign of possession. I'd hate to be a bigot, so I'll just go with "equally nuts."

Agreed.

GAT_00: Thomas Jefferson said in the Treaty of Tripoli in, I believe 1789, that the United States was not founded, and is not, a Christian nation.

I believe that treaty was drafted during Washington's administration, and ultimately signed by Adams. After getting unanimous approval by the Senate. May be wrong...too lazy to confirm.

shiat...can you even imagine such a thing happening today?

And yet, we are constantly being told that America has moved away from God.

Very few of the Founding Fathers could be elected to city council these days...nearly all would be tarred as "atheists."

Lionel Mandrake: I believe that treaty was drafted during Washington's administration, and ultimately signed by Adams. After getting unanimous approval by the Senate. May be wrong...too lazy to confirm.

True, but Jefferson was Washington's Secretary of State. I don't know if he actually wrote it, but it sure sounds like something he would could have written.

Churchill2004: True, but Jefferson was Washington's Secretary of State. I don't know if he actually wrote it, but it sure sounds like something he would could have written.

Indeed. The most amazing thing (to me) is the Senate's unanimous support. Unthinkable today. Any pol who supported legislation with that language would be removed from office with head-spinning speed...if he managed to keep his head at all.

One point about the terminology "Christian nation"- I don't think there's any dispute that this is an overwhelmingly Christian nation, and was even more so at its founding. The key point is that "nation" /= "government". Go read Common Sense for a nice explanation of this point.

Ok, I have to correct myself and give credit to Lionel Mandrake. It was Adams who signed it, and it was written by Joel Barlow in 1796. Article 11 reads:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Link Here (new window)

Wiki also notes that it was only the third time a unanimous result was obtained.

How have we gone so far astray?

I should add that the unanimous result was in the Senate. Its too late for me to be up.

Ugh...'Christian' isn't a religion. A 'Christian Nation' implies nothing more than that we officially recognize the Jesus as the incarnation of Sky Ghost as a matter of public policy. Great, but how does that further your worldview that the law should start enforcing your specific demoninations' dogma? Fight amongst yourselves, Sky Ghost Believers! I don't want to deal with it.

GUYS DONT U GET IT? TEH FOUNDING FAHTERS -WERE- CHRISTIANS!!!!!11!!!1one

steelpeg
Which, ironically, was written by Christians!

So the definition of "Christian" has shifted to "person not believing in the divinity of Christ"? 'cause the majority of them didn't.
History. Get some.

Yeah, not a good idea. The pick of the bunch would be Catholic or Orthodox. That way you get booze and cool hats.

At some point, there's a disconnect between the majority of Americans - who are Christian, but not in a political way - and the minority who are the targets of code words like "Christian nation" and "values." Pandering politicians aside, the fundamentalists won't ever actually gain real traction because of this. All they're really doing is speeding up the demise of their religion by driving away more rational people.

We should be more honest: America was founded as a Protestant nation. A Protestant nation that had every intention of keeping the non-Prods out until we kind of flooded in. Oh sure, they had some tokens.

I wish the christians would get beamed up into heaven, already.

MickCollins: We should be more honest: America was founded as a Protestant nation. A Protestant nation that had every intention of keeping the non-Prods out until we kind of flooded in. Oh sure, they had some tokens.

Not true at all. I believe it was Maryland that was a catholic colony?
My settlement history is a bit rusty, I never much cared for that period of US history. I found it quite boring.

http://www.crossandthesword.org/

TheCid: I believe it was Maryland that was a catholic colony?

Yes.

I never much cared for that period of US history. I found it quite boring.

Yes!

But that's like, just my opinion, man.

That article was full of obvious common sense, the gist of which should be plainly apparent to anyone who professes a sense of pride in America. But the hijacking of the Right by Christians has skewed that sense so badly that the very proponents of a theocracy can't even see what makes their ambitions so nearsighted, let alone downright un-American.

Gregory F. Stuart: No, no, I definitely think America deserves to be a Christian nation. It needs strong Christian leaders who are going to put their foot down when it comes to activist judges and out-of-line Congressmen.

We need a strong Christian leader who will bring America back the way it out to truly be: a Christian nation, with Christian values, under Christian law. America deserves it.

Just wait until I graduate, and pay for my ticket out of it.

Bill_Wick's_Friend: It's too bad he had to frame his valid argument with the broad "everyone's wrong" argument instead of pointing the finger specifically where it belongs.

You don't think Obama's "No, really, I'm a Christian, honest" speech addresses that issue at all? When you've got a candidate who feels a need to go out of his way to ensure that people understand he believes in the "right" religion, then I think the author's point is valid.

For anyone who wants to argue that a single interpretation of religion should have legal prominence, I'd like to bring up William Penn and Roger Williams.

Roger Williams was exiled from the Massachusetts Bay Colony for questioning the beliefs of the established church, and after settling in Providence he helped to create a colony were secular and religious matters were kept quite separate. Although a bit of a religious radical himself, Williams had seen the repressive nature of religious dogma when coupled with secular power and understood that freedom of worship was essential to create a society of equals. Other people who were banished from the Massachusetts Bay Colony settled with Willams, as well. Oh, and Williams is credited as a central figure in founding the Baptist church in the Americas.

William Penn was a Quaker, and as such he had been at the receiving end of intimidation by religious authorities, including some time in prison. When and he traveled throughout Europe inviting Quakers and just about everyone else to settle in the new colony of Pennsylvania. He drafted the colony's constitution, including a guarantee of religious freedom for all settlers, and required that representatives of all settling groups be included in the legislature.

Both of these men knew that theocracies were repressive and took strong measures to prevent religious dogma from usurping secular power.

Hm, please excuse the grammatical errors, as Cutty Sark isn't much of a writing aid.

So many whip Jefferson's quote out of context, "separation of church and state", that the phrase has come to mean something completely different than what Jefferson meant.

It is theoretically possible, though probably not realistically possible, to have a theocracy while continuing to espouse the ideals that Jefferson was proposing.

At the same time, why is religion even an issue? Shouldn't an elected head of state be elected on his ability to competently manage the country and assemble people around him who can do the things that he's bad at? In fact, that would be the most vital skill.
Oh, right, it's America we're talking about. Nevermind about that crazy idea.

FTA: Rep. James Forbes (R-VA), backed by thirty-one other Representatives, has proposed House Resolution 888 designating the first week in May as "American Religious History Week." The purpose of the bill is to affirm "the rich spiritual and religious history of our Nation's founding and subsequent history . . . and for the appreciation of and education on America's history of religious faith.

What ever happened to 'Congress shall make no law...'? This isn't like in school where you can't do Christmas without doing all of they other religions. In the real world, they can't do all, they have to do none.

It never fails to irritate me when politicians proclaim how deeply religious they are... I suspect there are at least a few who are unbelievers; but realize admitting such would be the death of their political careers. Sucks immensely.

bheilig: GUYS DONT U GET IT? TEH FOUNDING FAHTERS -WERE- CHRISTIANS!!!!!11!!!1one

LauraBelle: It never fails to irritate me when politicians proclaim how deeply religious they are... I suspect there are at least a few who are unbelievers; but realize admitting such would be the death of their political careers.

Not at all. Remember how much support Bush generated when he told the country that 'god told [him] to invade Iraq, to free the Iraqi people'?

Only recently has a single public official admitted that he is an atheist; I wonder how long he'll retain his seat.

/people are stupid
//i r not people

Christians would fear a Christian nation, then they would actually have to live like Christians instead of just pretending and putting on shows.

/DRTFA

gadian: Christians would fear a Christian nation, then they would actually have to live like Christians instead of just pretending and putting on shows.

/DRTFA

AMEN

However, Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

/obscure!

The whole argument is moot. Like every other Christian thing done in the US "in god we trust", change of the pledge, moment of silence, they are all mostly non-denominational. You think atheists are filing lawsuits, wait till the Catholic Church starts suing (wait, they don't have money now)or these mega-church cults or the Southern Baptist Convention. The reason the US has remained as religion free is these groups detest each other. As a Federalist whole the country is too diverse in thought, particularly now.

/ Where they will and do have effect is school boards.

Too many xians, too few lions.