And then I'm on to YOU, New York.

It was really farking stupid to exclude them in the first place.

Gwendolyn: It was really farking stupid to exclude them in the first place.

yes it was, but that's not the point. the point is that clinton, obama and edwards signed a piece of paper that they were okay with this and that they wouldn't campaign in the states.

hillary left her name on the ballot because she could and that was fine but now she's trying to go back and change the rules after everyone else decided not to play. it's evil and not right.

cranberryzero: yes it was, but that's not the point.

No I think it is kinda the point. Sticking with a system and trying to punish states for trying to actually have a decision on the primary elections was stupid.

The other two and probably just pissed they didn't think of it first.

Gwendolyn: The other two and probably just pissed they didn't think of it first.

Yea..men just don't have a clue.

/ducks

Again?

Gwendolyn

Could not disagree more. If you let every state decide on its own when its primary will be, it would be chaos. Every state would jockeying for position, and before you know it, the first state primary for 2012 would be in February 2009.

The DNC had to step in and tell their states to be orderly, or there would be no order.

cranberryzero it's evil and not right.

Strewth!

Hillary brings shamelessness and opportunism to a whole new scary level.

/And Bubba went from being thefirst black president to being the first black Klansman.

Evil (new window)

Politics are dirty, just like real life.
Sometimes you just need to fight harder than the other guy to stay alive.
Tactics like that show precisely why Hillary is ready to deal with Al Queada and why B. Hussein Obama is NOT.
I hope Hillary gets these delagates, even though its a dirty trick, its a dirty trick that would make her come out on top.
Welcome to the game, BOYS.

Clonod: The DNC had to step in and tell their states to be orderly, or there would be no order.

Every freaking state should have the primary on Super Tuesday. There is no reason for Iowa and New Hampshire to decide the fate of the nation. We have machines to count the votes for the past 40 years. There's no reason to stagger the elections anymore.

hillary4real:

I don't want a leader who has to lie to get there. Just like I don't want a government that will torture or spy on its own people.

Saying the ends justify the means shows a complete lack of understanding of morality.

hillary4real: Politics are dirty, just like real life.
Sometimes you just need to fight harder than the other guy to stay alive.
Tactics like that show precisely why Hillary is ready to deal with Al Queada and why B. Hussein Obama is NOT.
I hope Hillary gets these delagates, even though its a dirty trick, its a dirty trick that would make her come out on top.
Welcome to the game, BOYS.

Geebus man, choose a side. One minute you rail AGAINST everything Ms. Clinton stands for, and the next you claim she's ready to deal with (lol) Al Queda?

Also, your Troll Fu on Senator Obama's name is not only weak, but SO 2007. Keep going back to that well tho; I'm msure you find it HILARIOUS.

Repeat.

Gwendolyn

I disagree, again. Iowa and NH allow smaller candidates to get exposure. If you had a national primary, every four years, the political machine candidate would get the nomination, because only a well-funded candidate with the backing of his/her party's organizations can execute a 50 state campaign. Basically, the primaries would be pre-determined. It would be harmful to the democratic process, not empowering.

I'd rather entrust some responsibility to two states that have shown an eagerness to dig deep and learn the candidates, and are small enough that small campaigns effectively canvass them.

Reason # 403 not to vote for Hillary.

The point is that she did it after the fact. If she had pressed for the states to be seated before the vote, it would be kosher.

And don't pull that "politics are dirty" BS. Just because there are underhanded things being done does not mean they should be accepted.

Anyone who sincerely believes she should get her delegates from those states is either a complete idiot or brainwashed.

cheap socialist whore.

Pete and Repete are running for president, Pete went with the official democratic party descision and kept his name off the ballot. Who's an opportunistic twunt?

To those who say it's a stupid rule, and FL and MI should get their delegates back, who shiat on Howard Dean for kicking them out in the first place, guess what: The DNC didn't just decide to, they had no choice:

By law, party Rules and Supreme Court cases, the Conventions of both parties are the ruling bodies for those parties.

There will be a rules and credentials report submitted to the convention for approval. At that time, a majority (not 2/3) can ammend any rule prior to adoption.

Following adoption of the rules, the credentials report will be accepted or ammended and delegates seated. The convention, by majority vote can seat whomever they choose.

Seating of delegations and seated delegations walking out has a long history in our party. Mississippi once sent two seperate (but not quite equal) delegations to our convention.

"Terry McAuliffe's" rules were the rules as adopted by the entire DNC as directed by the 2004 convention.

So Howard Dean was bound by the rules set at the 2004 DNC convention to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates for trying to 'jump the queue'.

What Hillary is suggesting, is that once the nominee is selected, that nominee can request that these states' provisional delegates be seated with the rest of the delegates. From what I've read, the real play here is for the 'superdelegates' who will be pressured to go for Clinton if there isn't a clear front-runner by convention time.

Clonod: Gwendolyn

I disagree, again. Iowa and NH allow smaller candidates to get exposure. If you had a national primary, every four years, the political machine candidate would get the nomination, because only a well-funded candidate with the backing of his/her party's organizations can execute a 50 state campaign. Basically, the primaries would be pre-determined. It would be harmful to the democratic process, not empowering.

I'd rather entrust some responsibility to two states that have shown an eagerness to dig deep and learn the candidates, and are small enough that small campaigns effectively canvass them.

most candidates wouldn't bother with a 50-state campaign. they would camp out in NY, CA, TX, and the states with the most delegates to win. states like Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina would be lucky if they got a single stump-speech.

This is just as outrageous as it was when it was greenlighted and completely hashed out on here yesterday.

Said it there, will say it again here:

It appears the older woman vote is propelling Hillary.

Go home and smack your mom upside the head.

hillary4real: Tactics like that show precisely why Hillary is ready to deal with Al Queada and why B. Hussein Obama is NOT.

Yes, I can quite believe that Hilary would be ready to "deal" with Al Quaeda if she thought it would get her into the Whitehouse.

"You only bomb in the states that won't vote for me, and when I get in I'll tell the security forces to back off, ok?"

FishingWithFredo

exactly why the elderly should vote.

they have no future to be concerned with.

"Because Michigan and Florida violated the rules, all the major Democratic candidates pledged not to campaign there before their primaries.
Clinton said she did not think she was violating that agreement."

Riiiight. It was just a promise to reverse herself on something she agreed to and wouldn't have had any problem with honoring if she were higher up in the polls (damn Obama!). So it's really his fault. Certainly nothing that could be construed by a state that wants its delegates in as a campaign promise.

The best suggestion I heard was that instead of denying the delegates altogether, they should be divided equally between the candidates still in the race, and _Edwards anyone _Edwards who _Edwards drops _Edwards out _Edwards later _Edwards would not be able to reassign those delegates to another candidate.

Probably the most fair way to do it, and would tork Hillary off to no end. Win win.

Gwendolyn [TotalFark] Quote 2008-01-26 01:12:25 PM
cranberryzero: yes it was, but that's not the point.

No I think it is kinda the point. Sticking with a system and trying to punish states for trying to actually have a decision on the primary elections was stupid.


No, it isn't the farking point.

First off all, it was stupid, but not stupid on the DNC's part. It was stupid on the farking states part.

Do you realize that NH used to have their primary (the first primary) in middle of march. This year it was the first week of farking january!?!?!?

The DNC and the RNC NEED to put a stop to this. If they don't, we are going to be having primaries for the 2012 election in june of 2011.

Florida and Michigan acted like spoiled litte brats. They SHOULD be punished.

Gwendolyn: Every freaking state should have the primary on Super Tuesday. There is no reason for Iowa and New Hampshire to decide the fate of the nation. We have machines to count the votes for the past 40 years. There's no reason to stagger the elections anymore.

Michigan and Florida agreed to the primary calendar. Hell, the Florida Democrats didn't even *try* to get an earlier slot in the calendar.

Why shouldn't they be punished for breaking the rules they agreed to?

GaryPDX,

I generally disagree with you politically, emotionally, and morally most of the time; but damn it, when somebody does a photoshop tribute to Babylon 5, I can't help but surrender to their superior logic.

Gwendolyn: cranberryzero: yes it was, but that's not the point.

No I think it is kinda the point. Sticking with a system and trying to punish states for trying to actually have a decision on the primary elections was stupid.

The other two and probably just pissed they didn't think of it first.

The states were warned ahead of time not to move their primary. They did anyway. They got punished. It's done with until the next primary.

GaryPDX: And then I'm on to YOU, New York.



If Hillary is working for the Shadows than she has my vote!

/The Vorlons always seemed a little bit too conservative for me...

Bill Frist:First off all, it was stupid, but not stupid on the DNC's part. It was stupid on the farking states part.

Do you realize that NH used to have their primary (the first primary) in middle of march. This year it was the first week of farking january!?!?!?

The DNC and the RNC NEED to put a stop to this. If they don't, we are going to be having primaries for the 2012 election in june of 2011.

Florida and Michigan acted like spoiled litte brats. They SHOULD be punished.

The states acting like spoiled little brats are Iowa, New Hampshire (especially) and South Carolina.

The other states moved up because people are getting sick of having the presidential field narrowed in, and often largely decided in:

Iowa: A lily-white state where whoever promises the most unecessary farm subsidies wins

New Hampshire: A lily-white state whose economy and general dynamics bear no resemblance whatsoever to most of America's.

South Carolina: Where it's black, white and pretty much nobody else.

Where's the Midwest? Where's the West -- you know, where all of the people are moving to? Hispanics are the fastest-growing minority in the country -- where's their representation in the early primaries?

I've heard it pitched that it's a good idea to start with small states, because the candidates have to actually go there, connect with people, and have their ideas and platforms tested and scrutinized, something they'd never bother doing in a state like California.

I'm OK with that.

A reform proposal I've heard is to have the early primaries rotated among smaller states, or drawn in a lottery from smaller states. Great. All for it.

Now watch New Hampshire and Iowa throw a hissy fit and fark it up.

The Democratic Party threw their constituents in Michigan and Florida under the bus, in a complete pander to Iowa and N.H. Shame on them.

FishingWithFredo: The Democratic Party threw their constituents in Michigan and Florida under the bus, in a complete pander to Iowa and N.H. Shame on them.

I agree. But the question remains. Should the DNC be allowed to change the rules mid-game (or after-game in case of Michigan)?

I don't even have to talk about Jim McDougal or Whitewater, or Vince Foster, or Waco, or Janet Reno, or Ruby Ridge, or no response to the first WTC Bombing, or covering-up Flight 800, or leaving Somalia because of Blackhawk Down, or the lies - cover-up - lies and also lies throughout all of of Monicagate, Wag the Dog rather than commitment in Bosnia and Iraq , or Wal-Mart and China, Clinton and China, China and Al Gore...

...No, I don't have to discuss any of that. She's generating more fecal matter THIS YEAR than all the 8 years of the Clinton Administration! It's not even the end of the month!

Her slight of hand dirty tricks further illustrates how she will govern if no one stands up to her now.

God, the Clintons are embarrassing. Their arrogance is stunning. Even as a Republican, I used to respect Bill Clinton for his political acumen, even though I certainly don't agree with him on policy issues. Not anymore. The last month has shown me just how low the Clintons are willing to stoop to get re-elected.

FishingWithFredo: Iowa: A lily-white state where whoever promises the most unecessary farm subsidies wins

Because so much of the state is made up of farmers. Talk to ConAgra and ADM about the subsidies, but most Iowans could care less as it doesn't really affect them one way or the other.

I've never met that Rezco guy -- er, I don't remember, that was 17 years ago.. and Damn!

Hey! Look over there! Obama's got black children!!

FishingWithFredo: Where's the Midwest? Where's the West -- you know, where all of the people are moving to? Hispanics are the fastest-growing minority in the country -- where's their representation in the early primaries?

Nevada isn't out west and doesn't have a lot of Latinos?

I never thought I would say this, but the Clintons have started to make George Bush look palatable by comparison. This is some of the most vile underhanded shiite I have ever seen in an election, if the Democratic party wants to put her forward as the face of the party after all this shiite then honestly we dont deserve to win any elections. Hell we dont even deserve to live in this country. This is just farking disgusting.

Welcome to the new face of the Democratic Party, "Well suck your D**K for a hit of crack!"

/Other countries must be laughing thier asses off at what we have become.

Did Nevadans go to the polls before Iowa and New Hampshire?

orclover: I never thought I would say this, but the Clintons have started to make George Bush look palatable by comparison. This is some of the most vile underhanded shiite I have ever seen in an election, if the Democratic party wants to put her forward as the face of the party after all this shiite then honestly we don't deserve to win any elections. Hell we dont even deserve to live in this country. This is just farking disgusting.

It IS farking disgusting. Hillary should be disqualified just for attempting to subvert the process like she is. And if she succeeds, then the Democratic Party needs to dissolve faster than the GOP already is.

Fark her right in the ass, and fark Howard Dean if he goes along with it. They will be dead to me.

The Democratic Party threw their constituents in Michigan and Florida under the bus, in a complete pander to Iowa and N.H. Shame on them.


Michigan and Florida both agreed to the rules along with everyone else. Then they broke them.

Oh right, I forgot, rules aren't fair if they apply to me!

Whiel I agree it is stupid that Iowa and NH and SC go first every election, that doesn't make what Michigan and Florida did any less stupid.

That "but Billy was doing it toooooo!!!" line didn't work with your momma and it doesn't work with me.

What a dumb twat. I knew she would try to pull this crap off. If she wins SC today, I am moving to Holland.

/empty threat
//I'll say hi to Alec Baldwin for you

Some people think Clinton is doing this as premptive way of trying to divert the media's attention away from South Carolina where she is going to lose. If the media is focused on her grab for delegates in Florida/Michigan they will not cover her loss in South Carolina as much and the loss of momentum going into Super Tuesday will not be so bad for her. I think this is a good theory on her intentions. Instead of being the loser in South Carolina this makes the media coverage into how Hillary acts like a front runner that is covering all the bases by laying claim to these delegates.

Here's an idea, please feel free to rip it to shreds.

1. Mandatory appearances for candidates in all 50, over the course of a number of months. Six?
2. All primaries on one day.
3. Primary day, and election day on Saturday.
4. Profit?

/press blackouts until everyone votes, FTW.

Hillary Clinton is about as two-faced as they come...

Gwendolyn: cranberryzero: yes it was, but that's not the point.

No I think it is kinda the point. Sticking with a system and trying to punish states for trying to actually have a decision on the primary elections was stupid.

The other two and probably just pissed they didn't think of it first.

as a farker from florida, i fully support having our and michigan's delegates at the convention, but only under one condition.

cancel the florida primary, nullify michigans, and do it again on super tuesday or something, with all candidates on the ballot. that should give them a week or two to visit the states if they want to. it's not ideal for them, but it's the only way to give the voters a fair representation.

if you aren't going to make an effort to represent the voters, the delegates truly should not go.

Nice use of the tag.

As a proud member of the American Left, I've recently decided to NEVER, under no conditions, vote for Clinton².

You know how Bush and his cronies talk at us like we're 7? I talking about the patronizing, over-simplifying lies and fairy tales that makes us want to punch him in the mouth? Yeah, I get that from the Clinton camp every time she speaks these days.

Wait till Bill gets all red faced and pointy fingured on it and then the DNC will roll over, because you know facing Bill when he is red faced and pointy fingured is not easy.

We're too stupid to have primaries. Let's just choose our nominees in back rooms like we used to--it's not like the majority of us will know the difference.

/and Hillary would win either way

Bill Frist: Florida and Michigan acted like spoiled litte brats. They SHOULD be punished.

The people responsible for moving the primary should be punished. Not the citizens, who are effectively losing their voice here. BTW I'm not defending Hillary here because I think she's pulling a crap move by speaking up now instead of two months ago.