I think it so unfair they have to endure this brutal struggle and hand wringing.

They'll be let back in by December, I'm sure.

I think it would be funnier if they petitioned the US government to deny their readmission to the United States.

And while we're on the topic, why the hell would people flee the US because of Iraq? There's no draft...

Well, there are plenty of other places they can go to if Canada kicks them out.

Try Europe - they love to talk about how open and kind they are.

Oh, they aren't buying the "illegal war" thing either?

How about Russia? Oh, they don't want you anywhere near their borders?

Hmm. Well, there's always Palestine. They're always ready to take in morons who will spout off any propaganda against the US. Of course, some of their less understanding folks will probably kill you pretty soon, but you'll have made your little political statement by then so you can die happy...

Shaggy_C: And while we're on the topic, why the hell would people flee the US because of Iraq? There's no draft...

These are people who already voluntarily joined the military but don't want to fight.

Shaggy_C: And while we're on the topic, why the hell would people flee the US because of Iraq? There's no draft...

"War resister" == "I just joined the army for the free education, no one told me I might actually have to fight someone"

Shaggy_C: I think it would be funnier if they petitioned the US government to deny their readmission to the United States.

And while we're on the topic, why the hell would people flee the US because of Iraq? There's no draft...

Possibly military personnel who do not wish to fight for an illegal, unethical war?

Maillard says the Canadian government requires the U.S. soldiers who have to fled to Canada to go through a refugee process, but the refugee board refuses to consider the question of whether the Iraq war is legal.

He says that argument is central to the war resisters' claim that they are fleeing a conflict that "clearly violates" the Geneva Conventions' ban against wars of aggression.

1) You sign up for military service
2) You go AWOL, cross the border to Canada (legally as no warrants are out)
3) You can apply for refugee status
4) You do not get refugee status for not wanting to fight for the military you signed up for
5) Back to the U.S. like you expected
4*) The Geneva conventions don't factor in to the UN standard for refugee claims which Canada subscribes to. Maybe you should hire a better lawyer

This would be different, if as during the Vietnam war, there was a draft.

I am skeptical that there are hundreds of American soldiers AWOL in Canada, but that's what the group of "Iraq War Veterans" claimed.

Bhruic Quote 2008-01-26 01:29:14 PM
Shaggy_C: And while we're on the topic, why the hell would people flee the US because of Iraq? There's no draft...

"War resister" == "I just joined the army for the free education, no one told me I might actually have to fight someone"

I actually laughed at that one. And I was thinking the same thing. You joined up. It's a contract. Fulfill your end of it, or repay the money.

onomatopoetic: These are people who already voluntarily joined the military but don't want to fight.

Bhruic: "War resister" == "I just joined the army for the free education, no one told me I might actually have to fight someone"

ulairix: Possibly military personnel who do not wish to fight for an illegal, unethical war?

Well if that's the case, yes, take away their citizenship or make them pay the US government back for the money they stole (training, college money, etc). They broke a contract and should be punished for it.

onomatopoetic: Shaggy_C: And while we're on the topic, why the hell would people flee the US because of Iraq? There's no draft...

These are people who already voluntarily joined the military but don't want to fight.

Then they shouldn't have sworn an oath to do so in the first place.

They are worthless, let Canada keep them.

Hundreds?

Send 'em back.
We'll give them free room and board.
It's a little inn called Leavenworth.

The draft was one thing, they all volunteered.

Shaggy_C: Well if that's the case, yes, take away their citizenship or make them pay the US government back for the money they stole (training, college money, etc). They broke a contract and should be punished for it.

The U.S. and Canada have an extradition treaty. If they are charged with breaking American law, then Canada will return them upon request. However these people didn't even get that far, they entered as travellers/tourists and don't want to return as they promised at the border.

RandomFeature: They are worthless, let Canada keep them.

What makes you think we want them? They're your problem, you deal with them.

Canada will not ever accept these people as 'refugees.' They face no persecution in their homeland. They're illegal aliens who have overstayed their allowed visit, and none of them will ever get landed immigrant status, not just because they don't have the points (I'm sure there are a lot of USMC corporals with advanced degrees, work experience in an industry Canada requires and fluency in at least one other language because it ain't easy to get in here legally), but even if they were accepted on that basis they'd have to reapply from Buffalo, at which point they'd be arrested.

DO NOT WANT.

Bhruic: RandomFeature: They are worthless, let Canada keep them.

What makes you think we want them? They're your problem, you deal with them.

Good point. I've read some articles over the past few years that says Canada is less ... hospitable to these folks than they were during Vietnam.

Send 'em back then...Leavenworth awaits.

I don't blame anyone for opting out of Bush's bullshiat war. Iraq was not a threat, so there was no threat to defend against....but they need to pay back the money spent on them, plus interest, plus fines, etc.

Lionel Mandrake: I don't blame anyone for opting out of Bush's bullshiat war. Iraq was not a threat, so there was no threat to defend against....but they need to pay back the money spent on them, plus interest, plus fines, etc.

The American government will never allow recruits to buy their way out of military service. They are having enough difficulty meeting enlistment goals.

This story is about a domestic American issue. Should soldiers be allowed to choose when they fight, and if so on what grounds or under which circumstances. I don't think we can expect Canada to unilaterally invade and make the decision for us.

id10ts: The draft was one thing, they all volunteered.

Yea, but didn't they volunteer to protect the country or something? The lack of a declaration of war kind of makes participation in that action illegal, so they're probably just trying to do their jobs and avoid killing people needlessly.

Fark them !



.
Act like adults and keep your promise or take the penalties.

Bhruic: Shaggy_C: And while we're on the topic, why the hell would people flee the US because of Iraq? There's no draft...

"War resister" == "I just joined the army for the free education, no one told me I might actually have to fight someone"

1. Join Navy
2. ????
3. Profit!

/What my sister did...
//Not much action over in Japan

Bhruic: What makes you think we want them? They're your problem, you deal with them.

Hey - the staff shortages at my Timmy Ho's are terrible. We need these folks to work the types of jobs that are beneath my people.

I am certain that at least some of these 'resisters' joined up so they could make a political statement by running off to Canada. They know that anti-war leftists will support them, it looks good on their resume with that crowd. Books to be written, speeches to be made, lecture circuit for fun and profit. Meanwhile, there is really little downside.

I note that this article is short on specifics on numbers.

that_other_internet: id10ts: The draft was one thing, they all volunteered.

Yea, but didn't they volunteer to protect the country or something? The lack of a declaration of war kind of makes participation in that action illegal, so they're probably just trying to do their jobs and avoid killing people needlessly.

Better inform everyone whose severed in the military since the Second World War that you'll only see combat when Congress declares war on a foreign entity.

h to the 'ojo: The American government will never allow recruits to buy their way out of military service. They are having enough difficulty meeting enlistment goals.

This story is about a domestic American issue. Should soldiers be allowed to choose when they fight, and if so on what grounds or under which circumstances. I don't think we can expect Canada to unilaterally invade and make the decision for us.

I actually agree...I was speaking from the heart there. Obviously, people can't just join up then opt out when the shiat gets thick.

I just have enormous sympathy and admiration for those who said "FU and your BS war, Bush!" Sure, some were just pussies, but I believe many are principled, and I admire them for that. For some, staying quiet and going to Iraq would have been the easy thing to do.

I don't really know what should be done with these guys, but I have no hatred for them and no desire to see them dealt with harshly.

that_other_internet: id10ts: The draft was one thing, they all volunteered.

Yea, but didn't they volunteer to protect the country or something? The lack of a declaration of war kind of makes participation in that action illegal, so they're probably just trying to do their jobs and avoid killing people needlessly.

dude, you're missing the point.
There are 2 ways they can get Canadian citizenship and stay in Canada.

The immigration process. They probably don't have the education, skills, and money to qualify.

The refugee process. They don't qualify as refugees.

They get deported just like anyone else. This is not about showing solidarity or compassion with respect to American soldiers. If there were a draft, they could qualify as refugees.

LargeCanine: They know that anti-war leftists will support them, it looks good on their resume with that crowd. Books to be written, speeches to be made, lecture circuit for fun and profit. Meanwhile, there is really little downside.

Lol, yes...it's all about profit with these dirty hippies.

Thanks for the insight. American, right?

Wow, Iraqi Veterans Against the War...

Did former elite Ranger Jesse Macbeth lead the march?

h to the 'ojo: dude, you're missing the point.
There are 2 ways they can get Canadian citizenship and stay in Canada.

Hm, I really don't think the majority incentive is for citizenship.

I believe there's a bit of punishment waiting back home. That's probably a greater incentive to seek refugee status.

I mean...joining the army, having an Iraq war, then using that war as a reason to leave, and all so that they can get citizenship? I dunno...that's reaching.

Bhruic

To be fair, of all the military recruiters I saw at my old high school, only a couple ever mentioned combat. In fact some would claim that you could pick what job you wanted in the forces and they would guarantee you that specific job. So if you didn't want to see combat, you need merely pick a non-combat position. It's hard to believe anyone would believe them, but I guess there are some.

onomatopoetic: Shaggy_C: And while we're on the topic, why the hell would people flee the US because of Iraq? There's no draft...

These are people who already voluntarily joined the military but don't want to fight.

oh, traitors and cowards. May the know humiliation the rest of their lives, and be hatted by all who know them.

Schwarzen Winter: To be fair, of all the military recruiters I saw at my old high school, only a couple ever mentioned combat. In fact some would claim that you could pick what job you wanted in the forces and they would guarantee you that specific job. So if you didn't want to see combat, you need merely pick a non-combat position. It's hard to believe anyone would believe them, but I guess there are some.

Fark. Didn't these kids learn anything from Private Benjamin before enlisting?

The office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), operates off of a declaration made in 1957 and amended in 1967.

Article 1 defines a refugee as:
A person who is outside his or her country of nationality or habitual residence;
PASS


has a well-founded fear of persecution because of his or her race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion;
FAIL

and is unable or unwilling to avail himself or herself of the protection of that country, or to return there, for fear of persecution.
FAIL

Soldiers swear to uphold the Constitution. If a war is unconstitutional, what are they supposed to do? It may or not be, but if they think it is then they would be breaking their contract by fighting. Then again it isn't like Americans know or care about the Constitution.

Bob_Laublaw: Bhruic: What makes you think we want them? They're your problem, you deal with them.

Hey - the staff shortages at my Timmy Ho's are terrible. We need these folks to work the types of jobs that are beneath my people.

Agreed! Goddamn lineup at Dufferin & Bloor T-Ho's was almost out into the street.

Still beats the one in Chinatown staffed by Japanese people. Watching Asians misunderstand each other is almost worth the long-ass lineup.

incrdbil: and be hatted by all who know them.

Sweet, free hats!

that_other_internet: h to the 'ojo: dude, you're missing the point.
There are 2 ways they can get Canadian citizenship and stay in Canada.

Hm, I really don't think the majority incentive is for citizenship.

I believe there's a bit of punishment waiting back home. That's probably a greater incentive to seek refugee status.

I mean...joining the army, having an Iraq war, then using that war as a reason to leave, and all so that they can get citizenship? I dunno...that's reaching.

You cannot stay in Canada without getting some kind of visa or citizenship. The U.S./Canada don't require visas for short-term trips but if they catch you staying longer than that they will deport you the same as any other 'illegal immigrant'.

See my above post as to what persecution refers to. You cannot escape a drunk driving conviction by running to Canada for 'for fear of persecution' because the American legal system is not considered persecution.

Bhruic: Shaggy_C: And while we're on the topic, why the hell would people flee the US because of Iraq? There's no draft...

"War resister" == "I just joined the army for the free education, no one told me I might actually have to fight someone"

No, I think they knew they'd have to fight somebody.

Fighting a real enemy and fighting a concocted enemy are two different things.

Did you notice that it made no mention of Afghanistan -- you know, a real, actual, just war?

Apparently the Nuremberg defence is only a failure if you're an SS man. Apparently "just following orders" -- however unethical -- is acceptable in every other situation. Apparently all of the advances in 20th century jurisprudence to respect and represent sovereignty, to resist illegal orders, is meaningless. All of it is meaningless.

All on your say so.

Uncle Sam wants you, Bhruic.

I suggest you take him up on his offer.

It's college tuition, and you could obviously use it.

Suicidal Writer: Soldiers swear to uphold the Constitution. If a war is unconstitutional, what are they supposed to do? It may or not be, but if they think it is then they would be breaking their contract by fighting. Then again it isn't like Americans know or care about the Constitution.

You just described a case for the American Supreme Court.

h to the 'ojo: the American legal system is not considered persecution.

Unless you are up for the death penalty.

Lots of people throwing around the 'coward' idea while sitting at a computer on Fark.

If you've fought for the US at some point, feel free to continue.

I personally don't feel like dying or losing limbs for a war I don't support. If that makes me a coward, I'll take the title.

incrdbil: oh, traitors and cowards. May the know humiliation the rest of their lives, and be hatted by all who know them.

This is sarcasm, right?

RIGHT?

They didn't even enter as refugees. They just broke the rules and now want the Canadian government to bend over and accommodate them. No thanks.

Same goes for Americans who threaten to up and leave when the guy they don't like gets elected. Every thought about asking Canadians whether we want you here?

h to the 'ojo: has a well-founded fear of persecution because of his or her race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion;

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/orders/ (new window)

"Blocking Property of Certain Persons Who Threaten Stabilization Efforts in Iraq". This executive order provides the President with the authority to confiscate the assets of whoever opposes the US led war.

Dr. Mojo PhD:
Apparently the Nuremberg defence is only a failure if you're an SS man. Apparently "just following orders" -- however unethical -- is acceptable in every other situation. Apparently all of the advances in 20th century jurisprudence to respect and represent sovereignty, to resist illegal orders, is meaningless. All of it is meaningless.



Then why can't an American soldier prove that he was forced to commit a crime in American court so that the American legal system can prosecute the American commanders responsible?


I think the problem is expecting the rest of the world to charge & convict those who America is just too lazy to deal with

Dr. Mojo PhD: Apparently the Nuremberg defence is only a failure if you're an SS man. Apparently "just following orders" -- however unethical -- is acceptable in every other situation. Apparently all of the advances in 20th century jurisprudence to respect and represent sovereignty, to resist illegal orders, is meaningless. All of it is meaningless.

Apparently you think that that somehow is another country's problem. It's not. If your country's soldiers have a problem with the war they are being asked to fight, and the orders they are asked to follow, then they should take it up with your country's legal system.

Uncle Sam wants you, Bhruic.>

I'm pretty sure that I don't give a damn what "Uncle Sam" wants.

It's college tuition, and you could obviously use it.

No thanks, I'm perfectly happy with the university education I got up here.

that_other_internet: Threaten Stabilization Efforts in Iraq

You need better reading comprehension, even if it is in legalese.

(i) to have committed, or to pose a significant risk of committing, an act or acts of violence that have the purpose or effect of:

(A) threatening the peace or stability of Iraq or the Government of Iraq; or

(B) undermining efforts to promote economic reconstruction and political reform in Iraq or to provide humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people;

(ii) to have materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial, material, logistical, or technical support for, or goods or services in support of, such an act or acts of violence or any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order; or

(iii) to be owned or controlled by, or to have acted or purported to act for or on behalf of, directly or indirectly, any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order.

(b) The prohibitions in subsection (a) of this section include, but are not limited to, (i) the making of any contribution or provision of funds, goods, or services by, to, or for the benefit of any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order, and (ii) the receipt of any contribution or provision of funds, goods, or services from any such person.

It is an order to confiscate assets of those who have committed violence in Iraq and those who have funded such operations. It is related to Iran in fact

that_other_internet
Oh and if these soldiers have funded 'insurgents' in Iraq, then once again that does not constitute persecution. Just thought I had to be explicitly clear for your benefit

Schwarzen Winter - To be fair, of all the military recruiters I saw at my old high school, only a couple ever mentioned combat. In fact some would claim that you could pick what job you wanted in the forces and they would guarantee you that specific job. So if you didn't want to see combat, you need merely pick a non-combat position. It's hard to believe anyone would believe them, but I guess there are some.

I was active duty Navy 82-86. I got everything that was spelled out in my contract. Most of that 4 years was spent driving a desk on an aircraft carrier.

I went back in the Reserves in 05. I've gotten everything from my contract and more. I still drive a desk most of the time. I've transfered into a Seabee unit where I'm now learning construction trades. None of this was promised to me but I'm getting it. Unless you're signing up to be a grunt/ground pounder or airborne (god bless 'em) you'll get just about whatever you want out the service.

Spent 7 weeks in NM building the border fence last year.
Here's video (pops)
Not mine, posted by a civilian manager.