Common courtesy encourages me not to gut most of the humans I encounter on a daily basis.

2wolves: Common courtesy encourages me not to gut most of the humans I encounter on a daily basis.

this

2wolves: Common courtesy encourages me not to gut most of the humans I encounter on a daily basis.

Well said, m'dear. +1, and a D12 Bonus roll.

Etiquette is a set of conventions that set the boundaries of socially accepted behavior. If you don't like the rules, feel free to live on the outside of society as an outcast. Don't forget the black hair dye.

That said, etiquette is a changing thing. 100 years ago, it would not have been acceptable for me to be behind closed doors with a man other than my husband. Today, it's perfectly fine and may even be a business meeting.

CarolynLibrarian:
Well said, m'dear. +1, and a D12 Bonus roll.



You are very kind. My THAC0 for librarians has always been incredibly high.

2wolves:My THAC0 for librarians has always been incredibly high.

Forgive me, I've been away. THAC0?

Oh. Damn. Right. THAC0, as in D&D. Which I referenced in the first place.

I need another beer.

CarolynLibrarian: Oh. Damn. Right. THAC0, as in D&D. Which I referenced in the first place.

I need another beer.

Which I will deliver to you upon request. A porter perhaps?

2wolves: CarolynLibrarian: Oh. Damn. Right. THAC0, as in D&D. Which I referenced in the first place.

I need another beer.

Which I will deliver to you upon request. A porter perhaps?

A porter would be lovely, thank you. Whatever is local will be just fine.

CarolynLibrarian:

A porter would be lovely, thank you. Whatever is local will be just fine.

You minx.

Local to thee or me?

A Yuengling porter is a very fine tipple.

2wolves:
You minx.

Local to thee or me?

A Yuengling porter is a very fine tipple.

Indeed - but if that's the DC Beltway mentioned in your profile, I'd love it if you could swing a Cap City Prohibition Porter or Knockout Stout. I miss them so...

nashBridges: Ha ha, SLUT!

I'm sorry, someone else was going to do it and you may as well get it from someone who apologizes for it. After all, I have manners ;)

I'm glad to see you have such an appreciation for etiquette. If we ever meet, I'll be sure to introduce you to the traditional Kazakh greeting of a swift kick in the nuts.

_{/thank your lucky stars I'm Welsh}

2wolves: You are very kind. My THAC0 for librarians has always been incredibly high.

I thought 'to hit' rolls used a d20, not a d12.

/each tick on a d20 represented a 5% chance

lordargent: I thought 'to hit' rolls used a d20, not a d12.

/each tick on a d20 represented a 5% chance

The DM trumps all.

"This is an old truism, and I think I was the first to point out that, in fact, finger bowls are unutterably faux poshe, and any table that sports them is excused manners or etiquette, and needs only ridicule."

That is perhaps the most pretentious sentence I have ever read in my entire life. "faux poshe"? For fark's sake dude, I almost threw up.

I work in a library, so I get to see the best and worst of day-to-day human interaction. You'd be surprised how many people complain over a thirty cent fine. Anyway, the thing I hate most is people babbling on their cellphones while I'm issuing their books. At least pretend to give me your full attention for the half-minute it takes to issue your books and give you your date slip.

On the other hand, I am quite happy to shoot the breeze with you and engage in idle chit-chat, so long as there's no-one waiting behind you.

GET A ROOM.

Preferably one without closed doors.

Heinlein said it best.

Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best.

I refuse to dine with anything less than 26 utensils.

CarolynLibrarian: lordargent: I thought 'to hit' rolls used a d20, not a d12.

/each tick on a d20 represented a 5% chance

The DM trumps all.

And see, y'all forgot to thank the Lord Gygax for giving you this cant.

Truly good manners are on the decline.

Sorry, I didn't have the good manners to finish reading that boresome article.

I think the problem lies in indentifying old time etiquette and modern etiquette. They're not the same. Some people seem to think that the old-school etiquette is the correct one.
The few people I've met who try to be old-school "polite" come off as cold, uncaring and unpolite.

LonMead: CarolynLibrarian: lordargent: I thought 'to hit' rolls used a d20, not a d12.

/each tick on a d20 represented a 5% chance

The DM trumps all.

And see, y'all forgot to thank the Lord Gygax for giving you this cant.

Truly good manners are on the decline.

Several years of Wizards whoring the IP for every penny it'll yield tends to erode the social niceties.

swahnhennessy
2008-01-20 06:18:27 AM
I refuse to dine with anything less than 26 utensils.
-

I see what you did there :S

To a large extent, the author seems to only be speaking out against the extremely rigid and slightly arcane etiquette that can go with very formal events like balls and certain business dinners. However, he really shouldn't just use the words "manners" and "etiquette" to speak out against those things, since to most people those words refer to common courtesy like saying "please" and "thank you", and asking for things instead of demanding them. You know, the sort of manners that keep people from killing each other (more than they already do, anyway).

2Wolves: Marry me.

drredhook: GET A ROOM.

Preferably one without closed doors.

Flip you for the doors- I'd like them. Closed.

2wolves: CarolynLibrarian:
Well said, m'dear. +1, and a D12 Bonus roll.



You are very kind. My THAC0 for librarians has always been incredibly high.

I must point out that we're now on 4th Edition Rules, and THAC0 hasn't been used sine 2nd Edition.

/ sad part is I do all my D&Ding via Neverwinter Nights 2.

wickedragon: I think the problem lies in indentifying old time etiquette and modern etiquette. They're not the same. Some people seem to think that the old-school etiquette is the correct one.
The few people I've met who try to be old-school "polite" come off as cold, uncaring and unpolite.

Very true. It reminds me of language in many ways. You get people who are very old fasioned and insist that people don't split infinitives, etc and use whom in the prepositional case or whatever it is. They try to obey language rules from 50 or 100 years ago, and come across as pretentious, and hard to understand.

But then there are people who don't understand good writing and speaking style. They just can't communicate well. (Not that I am perfect.) Not being able to communicate well is disabling for those people.

There is formal prescriptive etiquite which is irrelivant, and deserves to be ignored. Unfortunately people also apply this to common courtesy, and good manners.

Heims: 2wolves: CarolynLibrarian:
Well said, m'dear. +1, and a D12 Bonus roll.



You are very kind. My THAC0 for librarians has always been incredibly high.

I must point out that we're now on 4th Edition Rules, and THAC0 hasn't been used sine 2nd Edition.

/ sad part is I do all my D&Ding via Neverwinter Nights 2.

If we're going to nerd parse this morning, I should point out that he would want his THAC0 for librarians to be incredibly low, improving his chance to hit.

Wait... or was he implying that since he doesn't hit librarians, his THAC0 must be high? Gah, now I'm just confusing myself.

Etiquette has its place. Methinks the author wishes to be a troglodyte.

Heims: / sad part is I do all my D&Ding via Neverwinter Nights 2.

Which, IIRC, is still using 3.5 or revised 3rd ed.

Slowontheuptake: To a large extent, the author seems to only be speaking out against the extremely rigid and slightly arcane etiquette that can go with very formal events like balls and certain business dinners. However, he really shouldn't just use the words "manners" and "etiquette" to speak out against those things, since to most people those words refer to common courtesy like saying "please" and "thank you", and asking for things instead of demanding them. You know, the sort of manners that keep people from killing each other (more than they already do, anyway).

FTA,"Just so you know, the difference between etiquette and manners: manners are English and inclusive, etiquette is French and exclusive.

Etiquette is an arcane list of arbitrary and pointless conventions that are laid down as pratfalls for the aspirational, as an amusement for the unlovable. It's etiquette that points out to the girl next to you that she's drinking from the finger bowl; it's manners that insist you drink from yours to put her at ease."

Seems pretty straightforward (and bang on) to me...

Manners are still very important to getting ahead in the world, even though some people wish it weren't so. Sure you don't need table manners to eat dinner but it subtly says that even though you didn't have to go the extra mile, you made that effort. This can make a big impression on employers, clients, dates, etc. Sure, some people don't care, but there are very few situations in your life where having good manners will hurt you (and you can turn them off then!).

It's just like dressing well and being neatly groomed. I remember in high school I had a (computer nerd) friend who went on and on about how he should be allowed to wear whatever he wants, it doesn't change who he is. This might be true - but tough luck kiddo, you being slovenly isn't going to change the way the world works. These things are important for life, I'm really glad my parents took the time to teach me and I'd encourage everyone else to spend some time brushing up on your manners. Just remember, when you are watching football with the guys, you don't need them, but holding the door for a lady can seal the deal.
... I can't believe I just made this post on Fark.

Does not approve of the farkin author.
Thank you.
Have a nice day.

lordargent: I thought 'to hit' rolls used a d20, not a d12.

Okay, then I'm a black guy.

BackwardsHatClub: ... I can't believe I just made this post on Fark.

A little like discussing the proper consistency for foie gras while eating out of a dumpster, neh?

That was like the best restaurant review EVER.

At one presentation we made to a client at a prestigious country club that's hosted US Opens and Amateurs, our VP Sales took his napkin from his lap and blew his nose in it.

The president of the company (who was a member of the club) never invited that VP back to play.

The article does sound like it's written by a guy who likes to simply lift up a cheek after dinner and let one rip rather than excusing himself. Sure, lots of rules seem silly. But in not abiding by the lot, you end up moving to the other extreme - as in the cretins who insist on talking on a cell phone while standing in line trying to give an order for coffee or a burger or whatever. Avoiding inconsideration of others is why we have to continue to at least stress manners, if not formal etiquette.

Also, while a lot of the old rules seem silly to us, if you travel, remember that was seems like silly ettiquette rules to us is actually ingrained culture elsewhere. When in Rome...

nashBridges: It's like eating pizza with a knife and fork in the US. How nice does the restaurant have to be before you think you should?


I started using a knife and fork on pizza after just the second time the cheese topping slid off the slice and flopped, pressing the bubbling hot sauce to my chin.
Once the pizza has cooled a bit, I go back to eating it with my hands...but when that pie hits the table, fresh from the oven, I don't want to wait or get scalded by hot tomato.
Knife, fork. Thanks.

nashBridges: CarolynLibrarian: That said, etiquette is a changing thing. 100 years ago, it would not have been acceptable for me to be behind closed doors with a man other than my husband. Today, it's perfectly fine and may even be a business meeting.

Ha ha, SLUT!

I'm sorry, someone else was going to do it and you may as well get it from someone who apologizes for it. After all, I have manners ;)

Part of the overall problem with etiquette today is that not only is it dependent on culture, but that the events those rules would usually lord over have become so distanced from the original culture that almost anything goes. It's like eating pizza with a knife and fork in the US. How nice does the restaurant have to be before you think you should?

Table manners, a term that was always used loosely in the US but was based in part on British manners, is something I can still get behind. You can learn the basics in about a day, and it keeps you from doing things like chewing with your mouth open, grabbing food from someone else's plate, and burping and farting at the table.

I should note that while I spent my childhood learning the basics, when I moved to China for a few years all of those rules were frequently violated at expensive business dinners and without surprise or shame. But god help you if you didn't offer the whole fish head to the most senior person at the table.

The place has to be nicer than any place serving pizza. Or they could sell deep dish I guess.. gotta use a fork for true chicago style.

Occam's Chainsaw: BackwardsHatClub: ... I can't believe I just made this post on Fark.

A little like discussing the proper consistency for foie gras while eating out of a dumpster, neh?


Exactly. I for one always keep my pinkies up when I photoshop.


/Fark etiquette
//If you slash once, you must slash twice
///Anymore than three and you're just playing with your slash then

Decados: Heinlein said it best.

Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best.

/This
//The man had quite a way with words

Heims: I must point out that we're now on 4th Edition Rules, and THAC0 hasn't been used sine 2nd Edition.


We're only on 4th edition if the DM says we're on it!

4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons - n. The realization that if gamers will pay a monthly fee to play online RPGs, then it stands to reason that they will subscribe to a tabletop RPG as well.
see also: miser, leech, Microsoft

This is the reason why I love British humor....so much more nuanced than American humor.

Etiquette helps us interact with strangers and associates whom we don't well enough to treat as casually as friends. Etiquette isn't pointless. Nor are the "rules" particularly arcane.

Etiquette matters. Think of how many graceless exchanges have needlessly coarsened the funerals you've attended in the past several years. Or jobs you may not have been offered because you treated the interview like an afternoon at a sports bar.

Courtesy and manners are a social lubricant (no, not that kind). It smooths the contact between individuals, and keeps the social machinery from seizing up.

Decados: Heinlein said it best.

"Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear."

Kinky.

Corporate Mofo: That was like the best restaurant review EVER.

Agreed! So glad I actually clicked the link and got through the whole etiquette thing to ket to the Krautsbasement review.

You missed out, cantsleep!

Could have used a little courtesy & manners at last night's showing of Cloverfield. There were people on their cell phones all around me right through the coming attractions. I leaned forward to some 19-yo chick right in front of me and said, "You ARE going to shut that thing off before the movie starts, right?" She ignored me, so the guy next to me told her to shut the farking thing off. The girl stood up, informed us that her father was a cop and that we couldn't talk to her like that. Big argument ensued between her & the guy next to me. She got the manager & the police officer posted in the lobby & had the guy thrown out (even though my husband & I stuck up for him). I missed the first 10 minutes of the movie because she was carrying on and causing a scene.

This is where common courtesy has gone--it's been eclipsed by people's sense of entitlement. All she had to do was shut off her phone, which is hardly an unheard-of request in a theatre. I do still find instances of courtesy & manners, even in NYC, but they're sadly becoming fewer & farther between.

AA Gill and Michael Winner write the most amusing reviews of restaurants. I've not yet been to the UK, nor when I go will I likely be able to afford the places they review, but damn, it makes for amusing readig. See also the 'etiket' column under 'court and social' in the Times.

I'd like to think I follow basic manners when at a restaurant - use a napkin on my lap, don't burp, don't raise your hand to call the waiter, etc. Other peoples lack of manners don't really bother me either - if you want to look an boorish oof, then that's fine.

But one thing that really irks me, and I don't know why, nor should it be any of my concern, is when guys wear baseball hats in a restaurant. Just bugs the piss outta me.