The irony is that those people who are so quick to sacrifice their civil rights to their government, in exchanged for its perceived protection, are often the very same people to sneer about a "nanny state."

So basically 71% of Americans are idiots. Good god I hate you people so much.

A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey

Yeah, these are people who volunteer to participate in telephone surveys. Take that for what it's worth.

By an amazing coincidence, this is the exact same percentage of people who believe the Rapture will happen sometime in 2007.

/Oh, wait...

Anyone is welcome to browse through my computer files. As long as they don't mind me standing behind them, sharpening my kitchen knives and humming songs from Sweeney Todd.

A driver's license is to show your competency to drive, not your right to exist.

DIAF authoritarian asshats.

Well, if a majority rules it, it must be best.

Can we vote on whether to disband the IRS or stop funding Iraq now?

King Something: By an amazing coincidence, this is the exact same percentage of people who believe the Rapture will happen sometime in 2007.

/Oh, wait...

Fierce American nationalism and religious zeal seem to go hand in hand.

I know you all are going to love this, but The Book of Mormon has a bit to say on topics like this...

25 Therefore, choose you by the avoice of this people, judges, that ye may be bjudged according to the claws which have been given you by our fathers, which are correct, and which were given them by the hand of the Lord.
26 Now it is not common that the avoice of the people desireth anything bcontrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the cpeople to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law-to do your business by the voice of the people.
27 And aif the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

/Yes I just tricked you into reading the Book of Mormon!
//It's good for you!
///Mosiah 29: 25-27

Screw security.

Screw liberty.

Famouspolka: /Yes I just tricked you into reading the Book of Mormon!



...And for your next trick, you'll pull scripture out of a hat!!


/Oh...wait.

I'm going to be bjudged according to my claws? uh oh

FTFA: Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and supporters of the legislation feel there are too many types of identification that allow people into the country

Cos presumably the Coyotes on the other side of the Mexican border make their passengers show fake id before they take their money?

Feeling safer by the day with that guy in charge!

/NOT!

//Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety ~Ben Franklin

21% said privacy was more important than protection. 21%???? That's it?? WTF happened to the real patriots out there?

Uber Dave: ...And for your next trick, you'll pull scripture out of a hat!!

/Oh...wait.

Uber Dave shoots... Nothin' but net!!!

Big WIN!

Fifty-one percent (51%) of Americans say that Security is more important than privacy.

51% of americans are stupid.

"Those who value security over liberty deserve neither." Great Ben Franklin quote.

Seems alot of people in charge today read 1984 and say "hey, there's alot of good ideas in here."

quatchi: //Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety ~Ben Franklin

The word of contention in that quote is 'essential'. It's like the liberal interpretation of 'general welfare'. Apparently it is a fluid term that can be redefined over time. Much to my chagrin, I can assure you...

Weaver95: 51% of americans are stupid.

It's a lot higher than that.

quatchi:
//Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety ~Ben Franklin

Came in here for this.

Though it might be argued that Franklin did not include "privacy" when he said "Essential Liberty".

/just sayin'
//appeals to authority are tricky...

Thanks Quatchi-
I Got the quote wrong
//Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety ~Ben Franklin

luckybastard: Though it might be argued that Franklin did not include "privacy" when he said "Essential Liberty".

It's an interesting debate, actually; is privacy the same thing as liberty? I would say yes, only because you are going to act differently when you know you are being watched. That means that it is an indirect assault on freedom because it is a passive coercion to change your erstwhile 'normal' activity. Thus, I feel that any intrusion of privacy in the private sphere is a direct affront to personal liberty as well.

They can look through my computer if they agree to repair it while they are at it.

/and if they don't ask what some of the programs do

Shaggy_C: It's an interesting debate, actually; is privacy the same thing as liberty? I would say yes, only because you are going to act differently when you know you are being watched. That means that it is an indirect assault on freedom because it is a passive coercion to change your erstwhile 'normal' activity. Thus, I feel that any intrusion of privacy in the private sphere is a direct affront to personal liberty as well.


This thread is not for debating. Please post you Ben Franklin quote now.

Shaggy_C: It's an interesting debate, actually; is privacy the same thing as liberty? I would say yes, only because you are going to act differently when you know you are being watched. That means that it is an indirect assault on freedom because it is a passive coercion to change your erstwhile 'normal' activity. Thus, I feel that any intrusion of privacy in the private sphere is a direct affront to personal liberty as well.

You should really read Foucault. The part on the Panopticon. It pretty much sums up what you're saying in a much more succinct way.

Paid RNC Spokesman: This thread is not for debating. Please post you Ben Franklin quote now.

*Sigh*

The man who does things makes many mistakes, but he never makes the biggest mistake of all - doing nothing.

-B. Hussein Franklin

Shaggy_C: luckybastard: Though it might be argued that Franklin did not include "privacy" when he said "Essential Liberty".

It's an interesting debate, actually; is privacy the same thing as liberty? I would say yes, only because you are going to act differently when you know you are being watched. That means that it is an indirect assault on freedom because it is a passive coercion to change your erstwhile 'normal' activity. Thus, I feel that any intrusion of privacy in the private sphere is a direct affront to personal liberty as well.

I think that between the push for 'real ID' and folks like RIAA/MPAA (not to mention the patriot act paranoia) that we're going to see government and corporations cooperating in an effort to virtually eliminate privacy in the 21st century. We're gonna be tracked, numbered, tagged and monitored for 'correct behavior'. Every download logged, every message read and every call recorded.

And the worst part? the voters will agree to it. someone will wave the flag and say it's 'for the children'. They'll mumble something about 'copyright infringement'. And then if you object, they'll call you a terrorist.

Guntram Shatterhand: You should really read Foucault. The part on the Panopticon. It pretty much sums up what you're saying in a much more succinct way.

Heh...'Succint' might not be the right term...he wrote a whole book about it!

In other news, 51% of Americans have never heard of George Orwell.

Weaver95: I think that between the push for 'real ID' and folks like RIAA/MPAA (not to mention the patriot act paranoia) that we're going to see government and corporations cooperating in an effort to virtually eliminate privacy in the 21st century. We're gonna be tracked, numbered, tagged and monitored for 'correct behavior'. Every download logged, every message read and every call recorded.

Let's not ignore the fact that these kinds of actions are coming from both sides of the aisle -- and all in the name of 'what's best for us.' Whether it's a healthcare system that monitors what you eat, whether you smoke, and what your blood pressure is at all times, or a major tracking database to log all minor crimes to track possible terrorist activity, it's not looking good for us as a species. Your options are to live with it or get off the grid completely. I mean, if you haven't done anything wrong, you've got nothing to fear - right, citizen? Fitter, happier, more productive.

Shaggy_C: Let's not ignore the fact that these kinds of actions are coming from both sides of the aisle -- and all in the name of 'what's best for us.' Whether it's a healthcare system that monitors what you eat, whether you smoke, and what your blood pressure is at all times, or a major tracking database to log all minor crimes to track possible terrorist activity, it's not looking good for us as a species. Your options are to live with it or get off the grid completely. I mean, if you haven't done anything wrong, you've got nothing to fear - right, citizen? Fitter, happier, more productive.

I think that's the worst part of all of this - both parties are completely in agreement about all of this crap. They both want to monitor citizens closely, and neither 'side' seems to give a damn about what the rank and file might have to say on the subject.

The good news is that this is a government run operation. That means it'll be inefficent and there will be 'cracks' in the system. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a way to exploit those cracks and circumvent government control. That's just a short term solution tho. The problem is getting the electorate to wake the fark up and understand that freedom is MORE important than some vague definition of 'security'.

The heck with reading Foucault. These people just need to read the freaking Fourth Amendment to the Constitution...

What part of "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects" do you people not understand?

superbeerchan: The heck with reading Foucault. These people just need to read the freaking Fourth Amendment to the Constitution...

What part of "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects" do you people not understand?

I think the War on Drugs killed the 4th amendment.

Gregory F. Stuart:
Now where's all the "small-government" conservatives/"libertarians" to come in and defend this kind of authoritarian bullshiat?

Hah. There are probably only 1000 or so "small-government" advocates left in this country.

Everyone wants mommy government to take care of them and daddy government to fight the bad guys for them. Consequently, look at the make up of Congress.

I will destroy or burn the contents of both before I let the government look just because they feel like it.

/Suck 4th Amendment, jerks.

bumblebutt: "Those who value security over liberty deserve neither." Great Ben Franklin quote.

Seems alot of people in charge today read 1984 and say "hey, there's alot of good ideas in here."

Liberty and privacy are too very different things. Personally, I don't have a problem with people reading my e-mail, going through my trash or even watching me on a private video feed.... so long as I have the freedom to do the same thing to them. An open and transparent society is a free society. Surveillance is only harmful when it's unbalanced (i.e. I can watch you but you can't watch me). Eliminate privacy for everyone and we can have both security and liberty. Viva la revolution!

Gee, I wonder why Bush was elected twice?

/America: land of the retarded

CheekyMunky: The irony is that those people who are so quick to sacrifice their civil rights to their government, in exchanged for its perceived protection, are often the very same people to sneer about a "nanny state."

Yeah, and their usually the same people with "pry my gun from my cold, dead, fingers" speeches. They refer to those in America that disagree as "panty-waisted liberals" and say "you want the terrorists to win" and that "if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" when in reality you just want the government to stay out of your personal life. Oh and you want the government to follow the law. Tragic.

Shaggy_C: Let's not ignore the fact that these kinds of actions are coming from both sides of the aisle -- and all in the name of 'what's best for us.'

Yeah, well right now, I'll tell you what Shaggy: I'm sick of losers voting for authoritarian policies in the name of "protecting America from the terrorists." I despise the expanded wiretap law, the Patriot Act, and the rest of the nonsense as blatant power grabs. Guess whom led the call for them, and crucified any disagreement with vitriol about the person disagreeing as being a traitor, sympathizer, or too stupid to understand reality after 9/11?

Yeah, the right-wing mouth machine. So bite me right-wingers, I hope those of you that supported all this bulls**t go DIAFC (die in a foreign country) under the same authoritarian bulls**t that you pushed for here. Still, while your at it, take the liberals that allowed themselves to be browbeat into supporting this s**t with you.

America's founders, if there is an afterlife, must be looking at us and wondering how we became a nation of farking cowards willing to trade liberty for perceived safety.

eddyatwork: So basically 71% of Americans are idiots. Good god I hate you people so much.

Whut? 71% seems low. WAY low.

UberDave: Famouspolka: /Yes I just tricked you into reading the Book of Mormon!



...And for your next trick, you'll pull scripture out of a hat!!


/Oh...wait.

I actually read it on the seer stones in the bottom of the hat.

/Well played sir!

Weaver95: Fifty-one percent (51%) of Americans say that Security is more important than privacy.

51% of americans are stupid.

Yeah, but the 2004 election already proved that.


Arthur Jumbles: Liberty and privacy are too very different things. Personally, I don't have a problem with people reading my e-mail, going through my trash or even watching me on a private video feed.... so long as I have the freedom to do the same thing to them. An open and transparent society is a free society. Surveillance is only harmful when it's unbalanced (i.e. I can watch you but you can't watch me). Eliminate privacy for everyone and we can have both security and liberty. Viva la revolution!

Dude, you seriously need to read the Constitution and decide if the US is the right country for you (assuming you live here).

Shaggy_C: It's an interesting debate, actually; is privacy the same thing as liberty? I would say yes, only because you are going to act differently when you know you are being watched.

Why would you act differently? If you wouldn't do something in public that you would in private isn't that a red flag for you that maybe you shouldn't be doing something? Personally, I try to avoid doing things in private that I wouldn't feel comfortable about doing in public, which is one reason why I favor Sunlight laws that promote transparency and reduce corruption in government.

Weaver95: I think the War on Drugs killed the 4th amendment.

Yeah, and isn't that a ridiculous war too. Considering this country was partially founded by smugglers (and later kept afloat by them) you'd think we'd know better.

Weaver95: The good news is that this is a government run operation. That means it'll be inefficent and there will be 'cracks' in the system. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a way to exploit those cracks and circumvent government control.

Careful citizen. That's suspicious behavior and borderline terrorist speak. Please report to your local "Happiness Center" for reprogramming.

stiletto_the_wise: Everyone wants mommy government to take care of them and daddy government to fight the bad guys for them. Consequently, look at the make up of Congress.

So I should be expected to fight foreign government armies by myself? Since when? I think you have part of this right, but we form governments to protect people from huge concentrations of power we can't fight ourselves. If you don't believe that then you're basically advocating anarchy.

Shaggy_C: Weaver95: The good news is that this is a government run operation. That means it'll be inefficent and there will be 'cracks' in the system. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a way to exploit those cracks and circumvent government control.

Careful citizen. That's suspicious behavior and borderline terrorist speak. Please report to your local "Happiness Center" for reprogramming.


You sure he shouldn't just head straight to Room 101 in the Ministry of Love?

I think that these "polls" are being put out there to slowly condition people into accepting giving up our privacy to the government.

Privacy, BTW, is PART of security. They are not contradictory goals. When we say we have a right to privacy that is part of saying that we have a right to security even against our own government.

CagedDepravity: Shaggy_C: Weaver95: The good news is that this is a government run operation. That means it'll be inefficent and there will be 'cracks' in the system. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a way to exploit those cracks and circumvent government control.

Careful citizen. That's suspicious behavior and borderline terrorist speak. Please report to your local "Happiness Center" for reprogramming.


You sure he shouldn't just head straight to Room 101 in the Ministry of Love?

I'm deathly afraid of rum, chocolate and fuzzy bunnies.

Arthur Jumbles: Why would you act differently? If you wouldn't do something in public that you would in private isn't that a red flag for you that maybe you shouldn't be doing something?

I prefer to have sex in private, thank you. You can call me a prude if you want.

/Other activities I like to do in private include: drinking, most bathroom activities, laundry, and surfing the internet.