Well, he IS the Pope, not Martin Luther. It's not like he's going to nail another 95 Theses to the Door of Wittenburg Cathedral or anything.

No, all cultures are NOT equal. Just equivalent.

The Pope is all for religious freedom when the Catholic Church is behind in the conversion game. But when the Catholic Church was ahead, where was their precious religious freedom? Getting whipped in Spain.

I'm confused, is this the muslim-bashing thread or the catholic-bashing one?

global wombats: I'm confused, is this the muslim-bashing thread or the catholic-bashing one?

Yes.

If you leave Christianity, no one gives a shiat. If you live in pretty much every majority Muslim country and decide you don't want to be Muslim anymore? Well, thats apostasy and that's death according to the Koran. So better recant. I think thats what the old man is referring to.


//Now cue the Child Molester and Darth Vader pictures!

worlddan:. But when the Catholic Church was ahead, where was their precious religious freedom? Getting whipped in Spain.

And Pope Benny and modern Catholics had a lot of control over that situation.

TFP: "everyone's right to practice their religion freely, or to change it . . . is a primordial right for every human being"

This word "primordial"... it doesn't mean what you think it means, Your Holiness.

Your Faith is Creepy: TFP: "everyone's right to practice their religion freely, or to change it . . . is a primordial right for every human being"

This word "primordial"... it doesn't mean what you think it means, Your Holiness.

pri·mor·di·al (prī-môr'dē-əl) Pronunciation Key
adj.
1. Being or happening first in sequence of time; original.
2. Primary or fundamental: play a primordial role.
3. Biology Belonging to or characteristic of the earliest stage of development of an organism or a part: primordial cells.

/Pet Peeve?

worlddan: The Pope is all for religious freedom when the Catholic Church is behind in the conversion game. But when the Catholic Church was ahead, where was their precious religious freedom? Getting whipped in Spain.

Even if true, that's not really Joey Rats' fault.

Wow, that's a rare display of rationality and good judgment from a birth control-hating waste of an orgasm who talks to invisible sky wizards.

SuperTramp

I was not expecting that picture to be in this thread

When the hell will we start using something other than oil to fuel our transportation needs so we can leave these people to their self destruction.?

manwithplanx: I was not expecting that picture to be in this thread

You must be new here.

TheXRayStyle: Pet Peeve?

Maybe. The "right" to practice or change one's religion is pretty far down on my list of inherent human rights, compared to, say, the rights to sustenance, liberty, self-defense, etc. Plus, I can't hear the word "primordial" without thinking "ooze".

Yeah, you're right. Pet peeve.

worlddan: The Pope is all for religious freedom when the Catholic Church is behind in the conversion game. But when the Catholic Church was ahead, where was their precious religious freedom? Getting whipped in Spain.

Actually, even under the Spanish Inquisition, which was state run, only individuals who claimed to be Catholics were prosecuted. It was essentially set up to root out heresy and had no authority over non-Catholics.

I miss the fun pope. For some reason this guy just reminds me of Bush, whenever he opens his mouth he seems to be saying something hypocritical. Also he was a nazi. Just throwing that out there.

"More people are leaving the church every day! We want to pick a pope who'll restore the image of Catholicism.. I reccomend the self-godwining guy."

Falcc: I miss the fun pope.

Who exactly was the fun pope? Nicholas Breakspear?

Wot? Did the Pope suddenly noticed that BushCo's li'l mis-adventures in Iraq basically removed all trace of Christianity after centuries?

Good eye, Epop!

Wot's on EggZBenny'Z plate next?

FTFA: Meanwhile, there were reports yesterday that Pope Benedict had decided to modify a controversial prayer for the conversion of Jews.

Il Giornale newspaper said this would involve at least the removal of a reference to Jewish "blindness" over Christ but the changes could be more extensive. A Vatican source said he expected changes to be announced before Good Friday on March 21 this year.




Approves

/not

Your Faith is Creepy: Maybe. The "right" to practice or change one's religion is pretty far down on my list of inherent human rights, compared to, say, the rights to sustenance, liberty, self-defense, etc. Plus, I can't hear the word "primordial" without thinking "ooze".

What, exactly, do you think liberty is if it doesn't include the right to practice or change one's religion?

Omis: Actually, even under the Spanish Inquisition, which was state run, only individuals who claimed to be Catholics were prosecuted. It was essentially set up to root out heresy and had no authority over non-Catholics.



Mel Brooks would disagree.

Your Faith is Creepy: Maybe. The "right" to practice or change one's religion is pretty far down on my list of inherent human rights, compared to, say, the rights to sustenance, liberty, self-defense, etc. Plus, I can't hear the word "primordial" without thinking "ooze".

Really? The right to believe whatever you want is not a fundamental human right? I would say its one of the absolute most vital ones - maybe the most important.

What, exactly, do you think liberty is if it doesn't include the right to practice or change one's religion?

Freedom of Religion includes Freedom from Religion.

See: Founding Fathers

Except that ex-communication is a right, People can choose who they associate themselves wiht, even if their reasons for doing so may be pure BS.

You do not, however have the right to say, kill apostates.

MickCollins: worlddan:. But when the Catholic Church was ahead, where was their precious religious freedom? Getting whipped in Spain.

And Pope Benny and modern Catholics had a lot of control over that situation.

Yep. And 300 years from now when people say, "but wait! 300 years ago the Pope was all for religious freedom" the current Pope is going to come along and say, "well, I didn't have any control over that situation."

Omis: worlddan: The Pope is all for religious freedom when the Catholic Church is behind in the conversion game. But when the Catholic Church was ahead, where was their precious religious freedom? Getting whipped in Spain.

Actually, even under the Spanish Inquisition, which was state run, only individuals who claimed to be Catholics were prosecuted. It was essentially set up to root out heresy and had no authority over non-Catholics.

And actually, at that time, almost everyone was a Catholic whether they liked it or not because if you think that what the Chuch did with heresy was bad try being an apostate.

Omis: Actually, even under the Spanish Inquisition, which was state run, only individuals who claimed to be Catholics were prosecuted. It was essentially set up to root out heresy and had no authority over non-Catholics.

Actually, the inquisition had authority over any baptized Christian. Non-Catholic Christian beliefs were called heresy too. There weren't many protestant in Spain but a few fell foul of the inquisition.

But anyhow, the Inquisition has been relegated to history and it is time the Islamic practice of persecuting apostates goes the same way.

Omis: worlddan: The Pope is all for religious freedom when the Catholic Church is behind in the conversion game. But when the Catholic Church was ahead, where was their precious religious freedom? Getting whipped in Spain.

Actually, even under the Spanish Inquisition, which was state run, only individuals who claimed to be Catholics were prosecuted. It was essentially set up to root out heresy and had no authority over non-Catholics.

That's utterly ridiculous. It's not about if you claimed to be Catholic, it's if they thought you were. If you were ever baptized, even as an infant, they would take you away from you Jewish (or wtvr) parents to save you, since you were a Catholic. And since the Catholic Church basically considered everyone to be under their dominion...

MickCollins: If you leave Christianity, no one gives a shiat. If you live in pretty much every majority Muslim country and decide you don't want to be Muslim anymore? Well, thats apostasy and that's death according to the Koran.


Damn, you can't even maintain equivalence when you're making up bare assertions. Are you trying to claim that not being a Muslim is punishable by death in most Islamic countries, or are you trying that the Bible doesn't call for apostates to be put to death, because neither of those claims are true.

Krymore

Are you trying to claim that not being a Muslim is punishable by death in most Islamic countries

Being a muslim who openly renounces his faith regardless of whether or not they become christians, hindus or atheists or anything else, is punishable by death in many countries.

"Today apostasy is punishable by death in the countries of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan and Mauritania. In Pakistan blasphemy is also punishable by death. Other punishments prescribed by Islamic law include the annulment of marriage with a Muslim spouse, the removal of children and the loss of all property and inheritance rights"

And in many countries there are cases of police essentially ignoring intimidation, as is commonly the case in egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment_for_apostasy

Right on time! The Church proves yet again that it's 500 years late for everything.

DamnYankees: Falcc: I miss the fun pope.

Who exactly was the fun pope? Nicholas Breakspear?

It's not obvious?

Rayne for pope!

/Obscure

No I didn't.

Captain Darling: But anyhow, the Inquisition has been relegated to history and it is time the Islamic practice of persecuting apostates goes the same way.

Agreed. But who do you nominate to tell the Flintstone wannabes that this is the case?

It's "bell the cat" time and once again the list of volunteers is short.

Middle Ages: Admit diseases aren't caused by demons.
1700's: Admit world isn't flat/the Earth revolves around the Sun.
2000's: Support religious freedom.
2100's: Admit pope isn't infallible, immortal.
2200's: Admit abortion isn't an instant path to hell shortly before invention of 100%-proof birth control, call on Martian rebels to lay down arms and surrender peacefully.

What the pope said sounds reasonable. The trouble with his, and all other religions, is when they disagree (abortion, birth control and gay rights for example) they claim it is a moral imperative and therefore they MUST insist on forcing their views on others thru political or military means, if necessary.

There are branches (some of the United Methodists and the United Church of Christ) who support either fully or under some circumstances the 'right' of a woman to have an abortion. Although these groups are in the minority, they still consider themselves 'Christian'. Other groups (mainly protestant) have no trouble with most forms of birth control.

But to hear groups who oppose abortion, birth control, etc, they have no choice but to impose THEIR version of religion on everyone, because to do otherwise is immoral.

What I am trying to say is that while what the pope said sounds right, and reasonable, there are issues where he would impose his opinions on others with the force of political law if he could, and see nothing wrong, corrupt or immoral about it. In fact, he would say it was just the opposite: right, pure and moral. I say this because in Vatican City and in countries which are officially 'Catholic' these religious views have been voted into law, despite the fact that other 'christian' religions would not agree and despite the fact that those religions ARE in those countries.

We shouldn't be surprised that other religions use the same standards, and decide which issues or beliefs they have a 'right' to impose on others.

So when we say (or the pope says, in this instance) that 'freedom of religion' is necessary in mostly non-christian parts of the world the muslims can say with conviction, supported by passages from their holy book, that this 'religious tolerance' is evil and to be suppressed. Just like the pope would says it about tolerance towards gays and their right to live their lifestyle.

It's The New World Order and they want you to talk to a man in the sky, any man in the sky is better than no man in the sky. And no more left and right politics, yay!

Okay, here we go..

THE POPE WAS A NAZI!!!

XSTIANS ARE HYPOCRITES!!! 500 YEARS AGO THEY WERE EXECUTING PEOPLE, SO WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN

And my personal favorite:

THIS IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE BUSH-CABALS WAR AGAINST ISLAM FOR IS KKKRISTAN FUNDAMNETLIST OIL OBSESSION!

Swampthing in Korea: Okay, here we go..

THE POPE WAS A NAZI!!!

XSTIANS ARE HYPOCRITES!!! 500 YEARS AGO THEY WERE EXECUTING PEOPLE, SO WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN

And my personal favorite:

THIS IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE BUSH-CABALS WAR AGAINST ISLAM FOR IS KKKRISTAN FUNDAMNETLIST OIL OBSESSION!

Your wrong. It's not 'THE POPE WAS A NAZI' it's the Pope IS a Nazi.

You don't have to go back 500 years ago for XTAINS to be executing people for religious reasons. In many parts of Africa and Asia in the 20th century XTIANS were executing people in the colonies that they controlled, or were trying to control. Italy in Ethiopia in the late '30s comes to mind. You can also look up atrocities committed in the Belgian Congo and by the Dutch in Indonesia.

Considering we are not (and have not been despite repeated oil crisis's) developing a coherent energy policy it makes sense for this country to be oil obsessed. Our economy and way of life could be destroyed and if that isn't part of our 'National Interest' it should be. And it didn't start with Bush, it's NIXON-FORD-CARTER-REAGAN-BUSH-CLINTON-BUSH. They all had a chance, and an energy crises, and none of them really tried. As soon as the oil became plentiful and cheap again they quit trying to do anything about it. Congress wasn't too concerned either. The US public also ceased to be concerned about it once gas was (relatively) cheap again. Same will probably happen again.

Recently I finished reading Friday by Heinlein. There were bits in there about "celebrating mass openly" and some other planet where the pope had moved to.

Anyone know if there is backstory to that in another Heinlein novel? Or is it just a low level side story?

MickCollins: If you leave Christianity, no one gives a shiat. If you live in pretty much every majority Muslim country and decide you don't want to be Muslim anymore? Well, thats apostasy and that's death according to the Koran

You don't know jack about Islam or Christianity.

LOL CRUSADES. Religion is evil and should be exterminated. I'm 25 years old, so I should know.

Once the Pope condemns child molestation, and releases all the documentation, AND pressures secular governments to convict the molesters, then he has my ear. Until then, he's an accomplice to pedophilia. Telling Africans not to use condoms? Well, nobody is perfect.

Swampthing in Korea: Okay, here we go..

THE POPE WAS A NAZI!!!

Uh, the pope is supposedly the voice of God. Wouldn't it make sense to not choose a pope who obviously could have done more to resist the Nazis? I guess when your organization is full of pedophiles, a former Nazi Youth member is fairly tame.

XSTIANS ARE HYPOCRITES!!! 500 YEARS AGO THEY WERE EXECUTING PEOPLE, SO WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN

Well, when you take every chance to say "Islam is a religion of war and destruction!" while in your holy book God racks up a rather high score on unbelievers; men, women, and children, no less; on top of crimes against humanity committed in the name of God/Jesus since the Bible was compiled, you MIGHT be a little hypocritical.

This is not an accusation of hypocrisy directed at you, I'm just trying to explain the situation.

THIS IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE BUSH-CABALS WAR AGAINST ISLAM FOR IS KKKRISTAN FUNDAMNETLIST OIL OBSESSION!

Well, while this is totally off the subject and poorly written to boot, I'll address it anyways.
1. Bush is openly Christian and has claimed to speak with God.
2. Many Christian fundamentalist leaders, Pat Robertson specifically, have claimed that God caused Bush's election, and/or that America is the new Kingdom of God on Earth, and/or that God commands the slaughter of the brown/yellow folk.

While tying those two together to end with "Bush hates Islam etc" is indeed a leap of faith (no pun intended), it's really not the matter at hand anyways.

Hate to break this to y'all, but a man doesn't become Pope because he's a forward thinking liberal prepared to challenge the root doctrines of a 2000 year old religion that has held the world in thrall since Constantine converted in 312 A.D.

Actually, it's totally the opposite. He becomes Pope because he stoutly defends the core precepts of the Roman Catholic Church.

And not to defend the man, but he wasn't "A Nazi," he was a member of the Hitler Youth from 1941 to the end of the Third Reich in 1945 (ages 14-18); during that period under Hitler, it wasn't an option. It was, how you say, REQUIRED.

TheXRayStyle: What, exactly, do you think liberty is if it doesn't include the right to practice or change one's religion?

DamnYankees: I would say [the right to believe whatever you want] is one of the absolute most vital [inherent human rights] - maybe the most important.

I'm not a deist, so my concept of rights isn't based on a relationship with a higher power, received wisdom, or sanctity. An inherent right, to me, derives from a recognition that some modalities of life are superior to others, in that they are conducive to health, happiness, procreation, whatever we value. We collectively decide to extend this recognition to others, because the concept of mutual benefit aids the formation of collaborative groups larger than a nuclear family.

I certainly agree with TheXRayStyle that liberty in the post-enlightenment sense (i.e., "LL&POH") includes freedom of religion. But liberty in its more "primordial" sense simply means, to me, freedom of movement.

I don't agree with DamnYankees that a "right to believe whatever you want" is an inherent human right. A right to specifically religious belief may be valued, but that's not the same thing. And religious belief is valued because of the structures and strictures that religious practice lends to groups that embrace it. It's really collective belief, and collective obedience, that we value. Independent thinkers are labeled unbelievers, atheists, pagans, heretics, apostates or worse, and disfavored by the larger society. Just ask your local polygamists, or any gay couple who'd like to be married in a church.

All the Pope is saying is, my group, your group, makes no diff so long as we all belong.

You know who else fought the ooze...

Sluggard Stone: You know who else fought the ooze...

That's not ooze! Those are noodly appendages!

Steve Zodiac: What the pope said sounds reasonable. The trouble with his, and all other religions, is when they disagree (abortion, birth control and gay rights for example) they claim it is a moral imperative and therefore they MUST insist on forcing their views on others thru political or military means, if necessary.

The Pope JPII was strongly against the Iraq Invasion (and for exactly the same reasons why he's against abortion), he pretty much called it an immoral war. Should the Pope kept his mouth shut?