No, we're not staying until 2020. Won't happen. We'll withdraw, but it's going to be a complete disaster and the country will spin away into Civil War and the person in the White House will take the blame for it all. Which is Bush's entire policy right now. His only goal is to prolong everything until he leaves office and a Democrat takes over the White House. Then, the fallout will be "the other side's" fault. Americans are dying over there every day so that this miserable failure of a human being can preserve his worthless shiat pile of a legacy and avoid completing the almost-total destruction of his party that he began seven years ago.

There's no hate like Bush hate.

"It is unknowable how long that conflict [the war in Iraq] will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." ~The brilliant Donald Rumsfeld

Six decades anyone?
$6 trillion, anyone?

Somehow, liberals are to blame, I can just feel it. After all, Republicans are so totally awesomely STRONG on Defense!!!

/remember, Penis Cheney never said how long the last throes, if you will, would take
//WORST.
///Doucheministration.
////EVER.

I like how it is now universally acknowledged that the war was a massive mistake. Whether you think we should stay to fix what we broke or withdraw immediately, every informed person thinks that we would have been better off with a secure Afghanistan and Hussein still in power.

I would put Hussein back in power in a heartbeat if it would mean that all those lives, money, time, and international respect would be restored. Try as he might, the catastrophic decision to enter Iraq and revitalize Al-Qaeda after very nearly wiping them off the planet will always be Bushie's legacy.

Re: 4 previous posts: this, that, this and that

Lionel Mandrake: "It is unknowable how long that conflict [the war in Iraq] will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." ~The brilliant Donald Rumsfeld

BushCo knew full well how long we would be in Iraq. They committed us to it through lies and deceit from the very beginning, with full knowledge that once we were ingrained it would be nearly impossible to pry us out. Democrats failed on the only chance we will ever have.

The Bush Administration is a criminal organization.

Satan_Sunburn: There's no hate like Bush hate.

True....no hate is more justifiable than Bush hate.

Pocket Ninja: No, we're not staying until 2020. Won't happen. We'll withdraw, but it's going to be a complete disaster and the country will spin away into Civil War and the person in the White House will take the blame for it all.

Good luck with that.

Humean_Nature: I like how it is now universally acknowledged that the war was a massive mistake. Whether you think we should stay to fix what we broke or withdraw immediately, every informed person thinks that we would have been better off with a secure Afghanistan and Hussein still in power.

Horsepuckey. If Hussein was going to be left in power, he was going to have to be contained and the post-Gulf war UN sanctions maintained to make sure he didn't attack his neighbors again. (And guess who was largely responsible for that?) Or do you think we should have just left him alone, pulled all of our forces out of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and said, "screw it, not our problem?" Remember what happened the last time the U.S. did that. (Here's a hint: Look up the name "April Glaspie.")

The standard is not perfection, the standard is the alternative. Consider the possibility that Bush did, in fact, choose the least bad alternative.

Sleeping Monkey: Lionel Mandrake: "It is unknowable how long that conflict [the war in Iraq] will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." ~The brilliant Donald Rumsfeld

BushCo knew full well how long we would be in Iraq. They committed us to it through lies and deceit from the very beginning, with full knowledge that once we were ingrained it would be nearly impossible to pry us out. Democrats failed on the only chance we will ever have.

The Bush Administration is a criminal organization.

I think Bush is the worse president and all but I think they actually thought Iraq would be a cake walk. He saw how easily Daddy Bush pushed Iraq back from Kuwait and he thought he would do Daddy one better and rescue Iraqis from Saddam.

What Bush did was a classic example of stupidity and arrogance. When you are an idiot, you should not surround yourself with yes men. It worse because he has total disrespect for the academic world. Any historian or sociologist professor in the country could have told them what to expect.

I've heard it said that we've brought the Iraqi people freedom but it would seem that we haven't brought them quite enough to be able to tell an occupying force (our military) that it's time to leave their country. I'll admit that we've harmed the Iraqi people but how much restitution (in the form of security) do we owe people who do not want it?

The Iraqi people are not enemies to be brought under our heel and our welcome in their country has long run out.

Satan_Sunburn: There's no hate like Bush hate.

I know. I can barely keep up with him. So much inspiration...

MasterThief: Pocket Ninja: No, we're not staying until 2020. Won't happen. We'll withdraw, but it's going to be a complete disaster and the country will spin away into Civil War and the person in the White House will take the blame for it all.

Good luck with that.

Humean_Nature: I like how it is now universally acknowledged that the war was a massive mistake. Whether you think we should stay to fix what we broke or withdraw immediately, every informed person thinks that we would have been better off with a secure Afghanistan and Hussein still in power.

Horsepuckey. If Hussein was going to be left in power, he was going to have to be contained and the post-Gulf war UN sanctions maintained to make sure he didn't attack his neighbors again. (And guess who was largely responsible for that?) Or do you think we should have just left him alone, pulled all of our forces out of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and said, "screw it, not our problem?" Remember what happened the last time the U.S. did that. (Here's a hint: Look up the name "April Glaspie.")

The standard is not perfection, the standard is the alternative. Consider the possibility that Bush did, in fact, choose the least bad alternative.

Bush had Saddam by the balls. Saddam really thought Bush was going to invade and he wanted to negotiate leaving Iraq if he would be allowed to take a few hundred million dollars. Saddam would have let the UN inspectors crawl up his butt with a microscope if that is what Bush had wanted. Bush sped up his race to war with Iraq because he was afraid Saddam was giving into fast. The invasion of Iraq was probably the worse thing Bush could have done that would have been supported by Congress. That it was supported by Congress is equally depressing. After 9/11, Bush could have done absolutely nothing and the US would have been better off then today.

The proper response to 9/11:

- issue firearms to pilots and reenforce cockpit doors
- allow FBI to place Saudi citizens on watch lists (previously not allowed)
- Full NATO strike on Afganistan to remove Taliban
- begin reducing US dependancy of foreign oil supply

Even though I wasn't born for the Vietnam quagmire (In a way Iraq is Vietnam for Millennium), we are going to stay there for another 2-3 years at which point we'll just leave. By then we would have lost approx 7,000 of our brave men and women, squandered roughly 2.5 trillion, lost massive support overseas (even more then now) and we will have nothing to show for it.

// well, we will have the oil fields...

Pocket Ninja: No, we're not staying until 2020.

It's like a kid's training wheels. If the adult insists on keeping them on, they will never learn to ride a two-wheeler.

It's a horribly simple analogy - but Bush, PNAC, and Co. made a gamble in Iraq and lost. Our choices are to leave now and let the place erupt into civil war, or stay indefinately and spend $4 trillion between now and 2020, or 2030, or whenever they become able to defend themselves (MOST LIKELY NEVER).

I say leave, let the place erupt in a horrible conflict - it will result in the rise of a Saddam-esque strongman, a person whom we will have to keep on a tight choke-chain.

Unfortunately, it puts us in a worse situation with Iraq than we were in pre-March 2003. But that's the price we pay for a crapshoot made by problem gamblers.

We cannot justify pouring trillions of dollars into the region when we cannot take care of ourselves at home. The only reason for keeping troops in Iraq is so that nobody can point to Bush and say "we told you so."

mrshowrules:

I wish to subscribe to your newsletter

Satan_Sunburn: There's no hate incredible screw up like Bush hate.

The man is a miserable failure and just laughs it off.

"Sorry about your country folks, Heh heh...see ya!"

/and that goes for TWO countries
//President Dumbass

MasterThief: The standard is not perfection, the standard is the alternative. Consider the possibility that Bush did, in fact, choose the least bad alternative.

(Considering) Nope. That didn't take long.

canyoneer

Flattered as I am by your pale imitation of me, can you please explain if you truly believe that the situation is so dire and no change is possible why you even bother to get up in the morning? Is it just to post your adolescent sky-has-fallen tirades? Because that is an empty a life as I've contemplated.

/Shouldn't you be off biatching at hero pilots?
//Does good news really hurt you that much?

FTFA: "The truth is that they simply cannot fix, supply, arm or fuel themselves completely enough at this point," said U.S. Army Lt. Gen. James Dubik, head of the Multi-National Security Transition Command in Iraq.

Yup, there's the problem. Not enuff weapons or oil in Iraq!

Good eye, chucklehead /snark>

The Truth is that over a billion dollars worth of weapons have gone missing over and above of the Iraqi Army's stockpiles that were looted before the occupation officially started.

The Tuth is that the soldiers of mis-fortune ie the Praetorian guard of Blackwater have turned Iraq into a massive black market in weapons of all sorts.

The Truth is that no matter wot number Pentagon officials wanna try boasting about in terms of Iraqi police and Army those organisations are all infiltrated with insurgents ie the resistance.

The Truth is that the reason generals got fired for even bringing up the concept of an "exit strategy" is b/c the plan all along was to stay there for decades and to figure out how to shape public opinion into accepting that reality along the way.

The Truth is that the multinationals who have made the American government their biyatch want those 40 year contracts honored and will have their way over the protests of the American citizenry cos that how it works now.

The truth is w/o a sustained American presence the Iraqis will not allow their oil fields to become de-nationalised for long.

Sorry to have to break that to anyone who aint been paying atttention up to this point.

/not really sorry at all.

quatchi: The Truth is that the reason generals got fired for even bringing up the concept of an "exit strategy" is b/c the plan all along was to stay there for decades and to figure out how to shape public opinion into accepting that reality along the way.

quatchi: The truth is w/o a sustained American presence the Iraqis will not allow their oil fields to become de-nationalised for long.


Your thoughts are full of truth. Well put.

what embodies american ideals more than the phrase "you break it, you bought it"?

it obvious we ARE staying there regardless of who wins the White House.

As someone who might be heading back to the box in '08...I'm gonna vote for the person who will not choose to hamstring the troops funding/equipment/moral

example ::~~~insert any democrat save for Lieberman

It would be a major mistake we if stay there much longer. Look what happeneded to the old Soviet Union in Afghanistan and the ramifcations that on their military/economy. That's what we are headed toward if we try to maintain a huge military presence in Iraq to long. It will rob of us blood and treasure all for nothing.

Maybe next time you'll actually listen to the people who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT... But I doubt it.

\Land of the free, home of the DUMB

bud jones: what embodies american ideals more than the phrase "you break it, you bought it"?

I remember back in 2004, when I listened to Air America on occasion, how Al Franken called up a Pottery Barn to check on their "You break it, you bought it" policy. Turns out they don't have one.

I think we have 6 more countries to go for PNAC to be accomplished.

Step 1: Remove troops
Step 2: Carpet bomb every population center in Iraq
Step 3: Go back in, take oil

Good. We'll move our permanent bases out of Saudi and into Iraq.

We still have bases in Germany. We still have bases in South Korea.

chu2dogg: BDS

Wow, you really told them! Your logic is unassailable! Your masterful rhetoric and overwhelming use indisputable facts have convinced me - and all others who ever questioned the intentions and aptitude of this administration - that the Iraq war has been a stellar success, and Americans are safer and more prosperous than ever !

Clearly it is time to repeal the 22^nd Amendment and appoint Bush President for Life!

Very funny. A brief skim of this thread it was all that was needed.

List of United States military bases. (new window)



Damn that evil President McKinley! Get our troops out of Cuba and the Philippines NOW!

Damn that evil President Truman! Get our troops out of Germany and Japan and Korea NOW!

Damn that evil President Clinton! Get our troops out of Kosovo and Bosnia-Hercegovina NOW!

And so on.

oil motherf*cker! do you use it!?!

canyoneer

BAD THINGS HAPPENED IN THE PAST, SO WE SHOULDN'T TRY TO CHANGE BAD THINGS NOW!

And other inspiring tales for our children.

canyoneer: Damn that evil President McKinley! Get our troops out of Cuba and the Philippines NOW!

Damn that evil President Truman! Get our troops out of Germany and Japan and Korea NOW!

Damn that evil President Clinton! Get our troops out of Kosovo and Bosnia-Hercegovina NOW!

And so on.

I don't think McKinley, Truman or Clinton lied about their reasons for going into those countries, nor did they lie to the American People about the commitment that would be required.

You Fail.

Sleeping Monkey: I don't think McKinley, Truman or Clinton lied about their reasons for going into those countries, nor did they lie to the American People about the commitment that would be required.

You Fail.

I'm always amused how this rambling dewsh defends PERMANENT MILITARY OCCUPATION OF IRAQ, but yet won't, nor does he have any plans to, be a part of the occupation force.

I suppose he'll tell us he has a mortgage, kids to take care of, or he's conveniently to old.

moops: I suppose he'll tell us he has a mortgage, kids to take care of, or he's conveniently to old.

Maybe he doesn't want to join the military? You know, volunteer force?

canyoneer reminds me of the nihilists from The Big Lebowski.

"She cut ov her toe. Ettz not fair!"

moops: I'm always amused how this rambling dewsh defends PERMANENT MILITARY OCCUPATION OF IRAQ

where else are we gonna get our oil?

Headso
moops: I'm always amused how this rambling dewsh defends PERMANENT MILITARY OCCUPATION OF IRAQ

where else are we gonna get our oil?

I don't know. Buying it seemed to work up to this point.

mrshowrules: The proper response to 9/11:

- issue firearms to pilots and reenforce cockpit doors

I can agree with that, but also add qualified air marshalls.

- allow FBI to place Saudi citizens on watch lists (previously not allowed)

Even though Saudi is still a pretty messed up country, how would we have been able to justify punishing an entire country for the actions of a few men? This has been nagging me since everyone constantly says it's Saudi's fault.

- Full NATO strike on Afganistan to remove Taliban

Big time agree. Getting NATO involved would have been a very very good thing.

- begin reducing US dependancy of foreign oil supply

That's a goal but I don't see that happening for decades upon decades.

canyoneer: Damn that evil President Clinton! Get our troops out of Kosovo and Bosnia-Hercegovina NOW!

And so on.

People always think i'm BS'ing them when I tell them we are still in Bosnia and Kosovo. Oh you silly civilians.

superoogie: I don't know. Buying it seemed to work up to this point.

We still buy it, we needed another place to buy it from, other sources have peaked.

Headso

We still buy it, we needed another place to buy it from, other sources have peaked.

Source?

Pocket Ninja: hich is Bush's entire policy right now. His only goal is to prolong everything until he leaves office and a Democrat takes over the White House. Then, the fallout will be "the other side's" fault.


at this point, I think Bush honestly doesn't care who's in the White House next, as long as the blame gets shifted away from him. Everything else I agree with though.

eqtworld:/we broke it, we bought it

1. Platitudes don't pay the bills.
2. You can break something you don't have the power to fix.

Sleeping Monkey

You don't know sh*t. the Spanish-American War was ginned-up by William Randolph Hearst, and the "sinking" of the Maine was a bullsh*t excuse, like the Gulf of Tonkin Incident (which never happened) or "WMD in Iraq" (which didn't exist).

"And I give you assurance and reassurance that every effort of your government will be directed toward that end. As long as it remains within my power to prevent there will be no blackout of peace in the United States."

- FDR, Fireside Chat on war in Europe (Sept. 3, 1939)

At the time he said this, FDR was secretly arming and financing the British and had every intention of going to war in Europe. He lied.

Pick up a history book for once in your life, you stupid slug. Every American war since the Mexican-American War has been based on lies and waged in order to destroy our enemies and expand our commercial empire. Grow up.