A proper solution would be to explain to the Iraqi's. Get your Steaming pile of shiate together or AMFYOYO.

Guess shock and awe didn't work out too good, did it?

Plan B: Come up with Plan C ASAP.

globalwarmingpraiser: A proper solution would be to explain to the Iraqi's. Get your Steaming pile of shiate together or AMFYOYO.

Why don't we all just mind our own business for a change?

ilambiquated: globalwarmingpraiser: A proper solution would be to explain to the Iraqi's. Get your Steaming pile of shiate together or AMFYOYO.

Why don't we all just mind our own business for a change?

And what? Pander to the public?

Call me paranoid, but I get worried when I hear the word "solution" applied to a situation that involves military occupation.

globalwarmingpraiser: A proper solution would be to explain to the Iraqi's. Get your Steaming pile of shiate together or AMFYOYO.

I think we should get the Iraqis to solve America's homeless problem while they're at it as well

globalwarmingpraiser: A proper solution would be to explain to the Iraqi's. Get your Steaming pile of shiate together or AMFYOYO.

We're you one of the ones convincing us that we should tell them to get their shiat together by committing more money, resources and troops to that shiathole? We should live and if it turns to shiat so be it. If its that big of a problem the UN will have to step in. At least we wont be footing as much of the bill and manpower.

live = leave. sorry...

h to the 'ojo: globalwarmingpraiser: A proper solution would be to explain to the Iraqi's. Get your Steaming pile of shiate together or AMFYOYO.

I think we should get the Iraqis to solve America's homeless problem while they're at it as well

More jobs, less stupid regulation, No hand outs to those who can work.

Inform them no more help if they don't get it together.

How about 'Free Iraq. End the Occupation.'

And the sooner the better.

Hideously Gigantic Smurf: Call me paranoid, but I get worried when I hear the word "solution" applied to a situation that involves military occupation.

Here comes your solution

ilambiquated: Guess shock and awe didn't work out too good, did it?

Plan B: Come up with Plan C ASAP.

Yeah, but they would require a Plan A.

globalwarmingpraiser: Inform them no more help if they don't get it together.

Interesting use of the word 'help'.

Alphax: How about 'Free Iraq. End the Occupation.'

And the sooner the better.

How about "we're in too deep and it would be really, really stupid and irresponsible of us to leave right now"?

Oh, sorry. You're morally committed to something. How dumb of me to present a real-world viewpoint.

END THE WAR! IRAQ WILL BE JUST FINE! LET'S LEAVE TOMORROW!

eatin' fetus: How about "we're in too deep and it would be really, really stupid and irresponsible of us to leave right now"?

I don't believe that. I see the occupation as the biggest problem keeping Iraq from getting better. It's not irresponsible at all, just the opposite.

Solution

Step 1: Impeach, Try, Convict and Imprison Bush/Cheney
Step 2: Bring the troops home
Step 3: Only start wars with countries who pose a real and immediate threat to our national security and that we are willing to provide enough money and troops to fight and win.
Step 4: Learn from this disaster of a policy from conception to execution and never repeat it again.

eatin' fetus: END THE WAR! IRAQ WILL BE JUST FINE! LET'S LEAVE TOMORROW!

ok... then how about PERPETUATE THE WAR! IRAQ WILL BE JUST FINE! LET'S STAY THERE FOREVER!

Yeah. That's better. Much more of a real-world view than those with moral commitments.

EwoksSuck: Solution

Step 1: Impeach, Try, Convict and Imprison Bush/Cheney
Step 2: Bring the troops home
Step 3: Only start wars with countries who pose a real and immediate threat to our national security and that we are willing to provide enough money and troops to fight and win.
Step 4: Learn from this disaster of a policy from conception to execution and never repeat it again.

Works for me, but I don't know if Step 4 is plausible; some people are adverse to learning.

Alphax

I don't believe that. I see the occupation as the biggest problem keeping Iraq from getting better. It's not irresponsible at all, just the opposite.

This is probably right. The country may be farked regardless though - a significant number (most?) of the educated and skilled Iraqis bugged out.

Great job, 'murica.

I'm amused by the term "anti-midas"

Ex-Republican: ilambiquated: Guess shock and awe didn't work out too good, did it?

Plan B: Come up with Plan C ASAP.

Yeah, but they would require a Plan A.

Plan A was to get flowers tossed at us.

Didn't King Midus screw everything up by turning everything he touched into Gold?

You know who else was looking for a "solution"...

/godwin at 3:59pst
//glass parking lot

Tabatha Static: eatin' fetus: END THE WAR! IRAQ WILL BE JUST FINE! LET'S LEAVE TOMORROW!

ok... then how about PERPETUATE THE WAR! IRAQ WILL BE JUST FINE! LET'S STAY THERE FOREVER!

Yeah. That's better. Much more of a real-world view than those with moral commitments.

Stay there forever? Hell no. Leave tomorrow? That's even hell no-ier.

I'm not justifying the war, but leaving now would be a huge mistake. Surely you can see that?

As far as the moral commitment thing, I'm picking on the holier-than-thou crowd. Some people take America very much for granted. This distorts their thinking. They think the whole world is like us. Free.

You can bet that most Iraqis would embrace democracy if it hadn't been suppressed through years of dictatorship.

But hey, dictatorship is cool. They would have figured out democracy eventually, i'm sure. Shiat, it ain't our country!

globalwarmingpraiser: Get your Steaming pile of shiate together

Cause we were begged to come in. BEGGED by them. And they aren't holding up their part, right?

5000_gallons_of_toothpaste: Didn't King Miduas screw everything up by turning everything he touched into Gold?

Actually yeah.

5000_gallons_of_toothpaste: Didn't King Midus screw everything up by turning everything he touched into Gold?

By analogy, will America come to regret having the biggest military in the world?

If police were to bust down my door, taser my family, and shoot my dog, I would probably want them to get the hell out of my house once they discovered they got the wrong address. I don't need them hang around and order me to fix the gaping hole in the wall first.

eatin' fetus:
You can bet that most Iraqis would embrace democracy if it hadn't been suppressed through years of dictatorship.

You sure about that, chief?

/spread the blame back to Saddam!
//because that's useful now

I had a solution back in 2003.

Don't friggin invade Iraq.

Funny, Bush Sr. and Cheney felt the same way in '91. By funny, I mean friggin sad.

eatin' fetus: Stay there forever? Hell no. Leave tomorrow? That's even hell no-ier.

I'm not justifying the war, but leaving now would be a huge mistake. Surely you can see that?

It's a moot point, really. With the build-up of fourteen military bases, the sprawling new embassy compound, and the world's second largest reserve of easily-exploitable petroleum, ain't nobody goin' nowhere regardless of how much presidential-campaign season smoke is being blown up our collective bungholes.

I stand a better chance of being made pope than a total US withdrawal from Iraq in my lifetime.

Tabatha Static:
It's a moot point, really. With the build-up of fourteen military bases, the sprawling new embassy compound, and the world's second largest reserve of easily-exploitable petroleum, ain't nobody goin' nowhere regardless of how much presidential-campaign season smoke is being blown up our collective bungholes.

I stand a better chance of being made pope than a total US withdrawal from Iraq in my lifetime.

I agree.

Like I said, we've made our bed. It's time to lie in it. We're in this for a while.

Any candidate that tells you otherwise is lying to you, folks.
There IS no quick fix.

Please realize this. They're playing on your emotions. Yes, it's normal to not want to kill other people. Yes, it's normal to be against your government when you have little understanding of their motivations for war.

And yes, some politicians are using this to their advantage to make you guilty and support them on their vague "end-the-war" platform. They could give a fark about Iraq though, all they want is your vote.

Don't buy into it. I'm not saying support this or that. I'm saying think objectively. Regardless of our motivations, it's irrelevant at this point. Embrace reality. Accept this: we're there to stay for quite a while.

5000_gallons_of_toothpaste:
Didn't King Midus screw everything up by turning everything he touched into Gold?

Yes, but he only screwed it up for himself.

eatin' fetus: There IS no quick fix.

Sure there is.

Just. Leave.

Stop meddling. Stop "nation building". Stop making hasty alliances of convenience with yesterday's foes who still hate America and the occupation. Stop. Just stop all of it and leave the Iraqis to clean up what is increasingly an Iraqi-created mess. They want to kill each other? They prefer sectarian anarchy over stability and tolerance? Go nuts.

Reagan got out of Lebanon and was wise to do so. Nobody fretted and moaned about how the ensuing civil war was anyone's problem but the Lebanese (and their neighbours, of course). It's still in the "sorting itself out" column almost thirty years later. Is anyone still of the mind that the USMC should still be in Beirut? So why the different standard for Iraq?

globalwarmingpraiser: A proper solution would be to explain to the Iraqi's. Get your Steaming pile of shiate together or AMFYOYO.

A newly minted idiot. Fark's future is just so bright and shiny.

Bill_Wick's_Friend: eatin' fetus: There IS no quick fix.

Sure there is.

Just. Leave.

Stop meddling. Stop "nation building". Stop making hasty alliances of convenience with yesterday's foes who still hate America and the occupation. Stop. Just stop all of it and leave the Iraqis to clean up what is increasingly an Iraqi-created mess. They want to kill each other? They prefer sectarian anarchy over stability and tolerance? Go nuts.

Reagan got out of Lebanon and was wise to do so. Nobody fretted and moaned about how the ensuing civil war was anyone's problem but the Lebanese (and their neighbours, of course). It's still in the "sorting itself out" column almost thirty years later. Is anyone still of the mind that the USMC should still be in Beirut? So why the different standard for Iraq?

We've chosen to involve ourselves in their 'sectarian anarchy'.

Therefore, we are at least partially (i mean mostly) responsible for restoring the place to something better than it was when we came.

Liberals argue that Iraq was so much better under Saddam, then turn right around and say we should leave immediately and let them sort themselves out. You would rather turn a blind eye than realize what we've truly gotten ourselves into? We have a responsibility, as Americans, to fulfill. Yes, more people will die. And yes, it sucks.

We ARE Iraq, now.

Yes, the surge works. No, don't expect instant gratification. Yes, it's going to take a long time. Yes, the administration didn't think it would take this long. Were they wrong? Ignorant? Misinformed? Lying?

Who knows. It's not time to speculate on that. It's time to actually do something and end this quagmire instead of calling for a ridiculous knee-jerk-let's-get-out-of-there solution. There is absolutely no good that could come of that.

Let the wingnuts try to impeach this and that. It doesn't matter.
It's all empty gestures at this point. It's been at least 6 friggin years so far.

Hypothetically:
So you get Bush/Cheney/Rove or whoever the f*ck put in prison. Ask yourself, what would that change? Would that TRULY bring stability to Iraq? Or just comfort to yourselves?

The reality is, we're not going anywhere, no matter WHO you elect president.

That's how they've decided to shape America, and that's what we're gonna have to deal with.

Damn, you seem fatalistic.

eatin' fetus: Hypothetically:
So you get Bush/Cheney/Rove or whoever the f*ck put in prison. Ask yourself, what would that change? Would that TRULY bring stability to Iraq? Or just comfort to yourselves?

Do you also feel that convicted murderers should not be put in prison, on the grounds that doing so won't bring the murder victim back to life?

Alphax: Damn, you seem fatalistic.

I'm sure i do, but i believe in my heart that i am being realistic.

You are free to disagree and state your point, of course. I would love to have someone offer a real solution, because right now, we sure don't have one - short of pure military force and money-flinging.

We're quite capable of that, but even the most hardcore right-winger doesn't want to see it go down like that for the next 20 years.

poot_rootbeer:
Do you also feel that convicted murderers should not be put in prison, on the grounds that doing so won't bring the murder victim back to life?

That's a bit of an extreme viewpoint, but i'll try to explain my position, again.

I have no opinion on whether they should be imprisoned. Maybe, maybe not. I am not qualified to judge. I am saying it's worthless to even consider that right now.

I am trying to simply state that we are in this thing, and we've made ourselves the only viable solution. We should damn sure see it through to the end, whenever that is, and wherever it leads. We might get farked, and we've already resigned to accept that risk.

We have the money and capability to help build Iraq into a stable democratic country. To charge in, destroy the place, then leave on a whim because it's getting too expensive, or that too many have sacrificed their lives, or that it simply just makes you feel better, is wholly hypocritical and contrary to our basic beliefs as Americans.

We did not set out to destroy. We set out to build.

eatin' fetus: You are free to disagree and state your point, of course.

My plan has been the same for years. Pull all Americans out of Iraq, especially the mercs, and officially apologize for invading in the first place. That will take away much of the reason for the fighting. Take the reconstruction money that isn't being used and give it to the Iraqis to rebuild their own country. They did it before after Desert Storm, they should be able to do it again. This will also help with their sky high unemployment.

With the recent reports of malnutrition among Iraqi children, and likely others, some food drops may be in order. It wouldn't be cheap, but I think it would be cheaper than right now.

The remaining problems can't be solved for them.

eatin' fetus: We did not set out to destroy. We set out to build.

I do not believe that.

So whatever happened to the benchmarks Iraq was supposed to meet? Is this the point where we all pretended that they never existed and we're not supposed to judge the war based on the whether the benchmarks were achieved?

eatin' fetus: We did not set out to destroy. We set out to build.

You don't build with bombs.
This is something everyone should know at an early age.

eatin' fetus: We did not set out to destroy. We set out to build

...permanent military bases, pipelines, and a massive politico-military master command center-- mission accomplished.

That's a pretty funny headline right there, Lou.