It's not binge drinking if you do it every day.

Afternoon_Delight:

This.

I thought banning smoking in pubs solved all the health issues?

Survival of the fittest. Those who cannot hold their drink will fall by the wayside and die.

Afternoon_Delight: The joys of government medicine...

Why not make everyone miserable. It's only fair.

Afternoon_Delight: The joys of government medicine...

Stop being such a nihilist emo kid.

The Republican party is like a flame to moths for the self-victimizing, repressed perverts, and the incompetent but entitled

but but but.....Universal Health Care!

Healthcare? Smoking bans? Evolution?

It sounds like this thread could be a perfect storm.

/ Excuse me while I get some popcorn.

Fine. Let's just privatize all of America.

No longer will the country ever lose a war. We can just switch between General Bob's private army and Admiral Fred's army. Don't worry about paying for it though, you'll all have nice pizza delivery jobs from the mafia. But you're still screwed when some biker rolls into town as his own sovereign nuclear power

Afternoon_Delight 2008-01-05 04:25:21 PM
The joys of government medicine...


I Miss Mah Bucket 2008-01-05 05:13:15 PM
Afternoon_Delight:

This.

Did you guys want the rest of us to leave while you finish fellating each other and the GOP?

ItchyAss: Afternoon_Delight 2008-01-05 04:25:21 PM
The joys of government medicine...


I Miss Mah Bucket 2008-01-05 05:13:15 PM
Afternoon_Delight:

This.

Did you guys want the rest of us to leave while you finish fellating each other and the GOP?

Is it still the GOP? I thought the GOP imploded after 10 years of control and now it's all the same people but the libertarian party so GWB can run for another 2 terms without modifying the constitution

Well, the Brits could always double their per capita spending on health care, so it matches ours in the US, and this problem would go away...
Or, the Brits can say, "gee, this National Health isn't working, let's try the American model", and they'll double their per capita spending anyway, and find out much of their population doesn't get any health care, and those that do have their's rationed by insurance bureaucrats rather than government bureaucrats, and they won't get any really desirable outcomes like longer lives.

The religious fervor in which they try to preserve the NHS, that relic of a failed, 19th Century philosophy, is just pathetic.

It is no longer a "health care system", it spends all its efforts to preserve itself and to hell with the sick. Those people out there trying to save lives were *individuals*, not an institution.

But faith is an amazing thing. Even when people are dying in the gutters they will cling to their religion, and roundly curse anyone who suggests a better way.

I am reminded of the old Soviet Union, and how, even when it had to have capitalist farms, to produce their food, side by side with communist farms, that produced little or nothing, they insisted for 60 years after the NEP that all the communist farms needed were more resources, endless resources, and somehow, some way, they would eventually work. That they would be better than capitalist farms. Because they had to be.

And they never did. Not once. And even though right next door, a capitalist-style farm might be overflowing with food, they ignored it, because they *had* to ignore it. Because their faith, their religion, told them that the communist farms *had* to be better.

So in their way, the British are just as stubborn, as are all those who try to substitute faith for efficiency. So the British will suffer horribly for their arrogance, just as those who seek to pray away disease because their faith tells them to do so.

Children will die. The elderly will suffer horribly. Untreated cancers will eat at their flesh, as will bed sores, and even insects. Anyone who can will leave the country to get health care. And any excuse will do to deny health care to anyone they can, over whatever contrived reason.

Truly the gods punish those they hate by making them insane, or by making them true believers.

What whammer said.

Afternoon_Delight: The joys of government medicine...


huh..? the Walter Reid problems were caused by private contractors. i know, i know, Rush never mentioned that part.

The religious fervor in which they try to preserve the NHS current insurance based system, that relic of a failed, 19th 20th Century philosophy, is just pathetic.

It is no longer a "health care system", it spends all its efforts to preserve itself and to hell with the sick. Those people out there trying to save lives were *individuals*, not an institution.

But faith is an amazing thing. Even when people are dying in the gutters they will cling to their religion, and roundly curse anyone who suggests a better way........

........Children will die. The elderly will suffer horribly. Untreated cancers will eat at their flesh, as will bed sores, and even insects. Anyone who can will leave the country to get health care. And any excuse will do to deny health care to anyone they can, over whatever contrived reason.

Truly the gods punish those they hate by making them insane, or by making them true believers.

FTFY

I was mixing up drinks at home last night, came up with a Martini-like concoction that was pretty damn tasty-

2 oz Scotch Whisky
1 oz Lemoncello
Dash of bitters

Shaker with ice, strain into martini glass

Someone else probably already came up with this, but I named it after my dog.

Good thing about Socialized Medicine: Poor people get the same coverage as rich people.

Bad thing about Socialized Medicine: Binge drinkers and smokers get the same coverage as people who don't (without paying a premium).

My name's Terry and I'm a law-abider...

did ANYONE RTFA????

The article was about how GREAT NHS is, how well it works, but how a country ridden with drunks and bar fights is abusing an otherwise productive health care system.


The UK sytem is ranked MUCH more highly than the US system. sorry all you Neocons..the US system is among the most broken in the world.

Interesting how then people always railing against universal health care are Americans who don't have it, ignorance much? We like it fine here, sure there are problems but the system generally works great.

FTFA: No, not the Royal Marsden - the NHS. And the greatest threat, says Dr Max Pemberton, is not from meddling politicans, but a selfish public

This statement is amazing and totally indicative of government managed anything. Allow me to translate from government dumbassery to English.

"It isn't the government's fault (or the politicians - VOTE FOR US!!!), it is the fault of SICK PEOPLE WHO KEEP GETTING SICK!"

I mean, I guess they have a point... medicine would work a whole lot better if those darn sickies just decided to man up and stop getting sick.

aerojockey: Bad thing about Socialized Medicine: Binge drinkers and smokers get the same coverage as people who don't (without paying a premium).

Just do what we do here: Big levies on alcohol and cigarettes. A bottle of absolute is $25 here, cigarettes are $8 IIRC. That way, people who drink/smoke a lot do pay more. Just have to do something about fatty foods now...

aug3: Afternoon_Delight: The joys of government medicine...


huh..? the Walter Reid problems were caused by private contractors. i know, i know, Rush never mentioned that part.

I wonder who bought the services and oversaw the work of these private contractors?

Nice try at redirection.

we have Universal AND private care here in Costa Rica.

WORKS GREAT. far superior to any healthcare my family ever recieved in the states and MUCH cheaper. oh yeah, and the doctors STILL make a boat load of money...just like doctors in every other developed nation.

Strange how the US is the ONLY developed nation not to have universal healthcare. Also strange how all the other developed nations WITH universal healthcare have a much higher quality of care.

yet..the US things universal heallthcare is some horrible thing becuse you believe what the politicians tell you?

come on people

////WAKE UP!

Of course, binge-drinking alone is unlikely to destroy the NHS. But, it is symptomatic of a shift in attitude in this country. Increasingly, we expect more and more from the NHS, and berate it when it cannot provide what we want, when we want it. But, as the Prime Minister pointed out over New Year, we fail to see that the NHS is a fragile system, a resource which we must all use appropriately.

Best paragraph of the article...

Unfortunately, news stories about the sucess and overall satisfaction with the English and Canadian systems are few and far between. Good news doesn't sell. People only want to hear bad news and only hear bad news even when the overall message is good as in this article. Intelligent debate is impossible when people throw up political cartoons and unflattering pictures of government officials and call it discourse. My 5 year old could fling poo at a canvas and I could call it art, but it wouldn't make it so.

OK, so let me get this straight...

A national healthcare system only works if people ration it to themselves, and only use it when in dire need?

LMAO.

Lars The Canadian Viking: Interesting how then people always railing against universal health care are Americans who don't have it, ignorance much? We like it fine here, sure there are problems but the system generally works great.

We don't want it! We'd rather pay for what we get when we need it, decide what kind of coverage we want and from what company, and choose the doctors and hospitals we want to be treated at!

You can have your system that "generally works great". I'll work my butt off to have a good job with superior health coverage, and have healthcare that is a bit better than "generally" anything.

/where do canadians go when they cant get good healthcare
//here
///says it all

dac8555: we have Universal AND private care here in Costa Rica.

WORKS GREAT. far superior to any healthcare my family ever recieved in the states and MUCH cheaper. oh yeah, and the doctors STILL make a boat load of money...just like doctors in every other developed nation.

Strange how the US is the ONLY developed nation not to have universal healthcare. Also strange how all the other developed nations WITH universal healthcare have a much higher quality of care.

yet..the US things universal heallthcare is some horrible thing becuse you believe what the politicians tell you?

come on people

////WAKE UP!

Costa Rica is not a developed nation. Unfortunately, healthcare costs in the US are higher. This is because it is a malpractice suit waiting to happen if you just send home every patient with a prescription for margaritas. Also the US produces over 90% of the world's new drugs and pays for the cost itself letting you buy them at 0.001% of the cost. If the US adopted a universal system the world would never have seen aspirin, penicillin or other crucial drugs.

ItchyAss: Unfortunately, news stories about the sucess and overall satisfaction with the English and Canadian systems are few and far between. Good news doesn't sell. People only want to hear bad news and only hear bad news even when the overall message is good as in this article. Intelligent debate is impossible when people throw up political cartoons and unflattering pictures of government officials and call it discourse. My 5 year old could fling poo at a canvas and I could call it art, but it wouldn't make it so.

I don't want politicians controlling my access to health care, plain and simple. I want to buy my own catastrophic insurance for only the coverage I want and I want to pay out of pocket for the rest. We do the same exact thing with car insurance. I don't understand why health insurance has to be any different.

FarkingSean: /where do canadians go when they cant get good healthcare
//here
///says it all


The new thing is actually to do "medical tourism" and visit a mayo clinic on par with a 5 star hotel in India and pay about 10-20% of the cost in the states.

/seriously

Afternoon_Delight: The joys of government medicine...

Yea, you drag that same tired cartoon out every time this topic comes up.

Here's the deal; we could wipe out national insurance in the UK overnight by electing a governement that promised ot get rid of it and replace it with private insurance (that's the nice thing about living in a democracy). Interestingly, no political party (even the fringe parties) have that on their agenda - seems nationalised health care is just too darned popular.

But what do we know - with our democracy and all...

aerojockey: Good thing about Socialized Medicine: Poor people get the same coverage as rich people.

Bad thing about Socialized Medicine: Binge drinkers and smokers get the same coverage as people who don't (without paying a premium).

I find poor people to be a bigger plague on society than binge drinkers and smokers. We should tax them more for being poor.

whammer: I am reminded of the old Soviet Union, and how, even when it had to have capitalist farms, to produce their food, side by side with communist farms, that produced little or nothing, they insisted for 60 years after the NEP that all the communist farms needed were more resources, endless resources, and somehow, some way, they would eventually work. That they would be better than capitalist farms. Because they had to be.

Except in the case of the NHS it essentially does work, and gives damned good value for money. It has flaws, but so does every alternative system.

Personally I think that the brief mention of the increasing cost of drugs is probably more of a problem than they're admitting. It's easier in a single provider system for doctors to resist pressure from drug companies to prescribe as much medication as possible, but the companies are still very influential.

Re-occupied: But what do we know - with our democracy and all...

How come Scottish MPs can vote on English matters but not vice versa?

What kind of democracy allocates only some citizens, by geography, a vote?

Nobody here in the UK is looking at the US health care system and saying 'you know, we ought to do it like that'. My aunt here in the UK recently died of breast cancer. She had top class care all the way through her illness. If she'd lived in the US, she'd probably have died five years ago and lost her home in the process.

aug3 2008-01-05 05:36:04 PM Afternoon_Delight: The joys of government medicine... huh..? the Walter Reid problems were caused by private contractors. i know, i know, Rush never mentioned that part.


Yup!

wombat18: My aunt here in the UK recently died of breast cancer.

Great endorsement of the NHS.
NHS: 0, Grim Reaper: 1

No Winchester references?

jake3988: aug3 2008-01-05 05:36:04 PM Afternoon_Delight: The joys of government medicine... huh..? the Walter Reid problems were caused by private contractors. i know, i know, Rush never mentioned that part.


Yup!

What do you think this "Universal health care" would mean? Doctors would become Government contractors for health care services.

FarkingSean: We don't want it! We'd rather pay for what we get when we need it, decide what kind of coverage we want and from what company, and choose the doctors and hospitals we want to be treated at!

You can have your system that "generally works great". I'll work my butt off to have a good job with superior health coverage, and have healthcare that is a bit better than "generally" anything.


You really don't know what you're missing. What if your HMO decides to cut you off because you've had an auto accident and need care? Or that surgery to repair a bad knee is elective and won't cover it? Or, what if you can't afford an HMO and have to rack up huge debts in case of an illness, if you can find a hospital to accept you at all.

With universal healthcare you don't have to worry about getting injured or sick, because you're taken care of. Most Canadians don't even think about it, which is worth a whole lot right there!

h to the 'ojo: Re-occupied: But what do we know - with our democracy and all...

How come Scottish MPs can vote on English matters but not vice versa?

What kind of democracy allocates only some citizens, by geography, a vote?

Meh, you want me to explain devolution to you in a thread about the NHS!?

Do your own homework sunshine...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devolution

mmm... pancake: What do you think this "Universal health care" would mean? Doctors would become Government contractors for health care services.

It won't be the government's fault if a universal healthcare system fails. Clearly it will have been a pre-existing condition so they won't be liable.

dac8555: we have Universal AND private care here in Costa Rica.

WORKS GREAT.

Scale that population up 100x and get back to us on how it 'WORKS GREAT'.
Designing a health care system for...the Seattle metro area, run by the local Seattle govt is one thing. Doing it for the entire US is something else altogether.

For all those who (for whatever reason) really, really want govt controlled healthcare in the US, I have one question:
"Would you be comfortable with the current president in charge of your healthcare funding?"

Yes, Bush will be gone next year. But the one who comes after the next one may well be worse.

The principle behind this is known as "risk pooling": the greater needs of one person are offset by the lesser needs of another. We are unlikely to use the full extent of the services our taxes pay for in a particular year, but this excess provides for who have need to call disproportionately on those shared resources. Insurance companies work on a similar principle, but because they are concerned about profit margins, they must exclude individuals who may place higher demands on the centralised pool. A nationalised system is egalitarian and just, because it provides for those with chronic diseases, or who require expensive treatments. Not only is socialised medicine the hallmark of a civilised society, it is also economically viable. The UK has one of the lowest expenditures per capita on health amongst developed countries, and yet produces similar outcomes.

Even in an article bashing the NHS, this guy basically says it all... socialized medicine is still 10000000% better then HMO's.

Oh, how lovely are HMO's... we can thank Nixon for HMO's.

wombat18: Nobody here in the UK is looking at the US health care system and saying 'you know, we ought to do it like that'. My aunt here in the UK recently died of breast cancer. She had top class care all the way through her illness. If she'd lived in the US, she'd probably have died five years ago and lost her home in the process.

My dad, in the US, died a few years ago of lung/brain cancer. Top class treatment all the way.
Gamma knife treatment 'today'. Aggressive chemo, home visits, personal calls from various doctors.

If he had lived in the UK, he'd probably still (although already dead) be on the waiting list.

/anecdotes work both ways

YouPeopleAreCrazy: Yes, Bush will be gone next year. But the one who comes after the next one may well be worse.

An illiterate homeless person on crack may well be better than Bush.

mmm... pancake I don't want politicians controlling my access to health care, plain and simple. I want to buy my own catastrophic insurance for only the coverage I want and I want to pay out of pocket for the rest. We do the same exact thing with car insurance. I don't understand why health insurance has to be any different.

This is the heart of the argument I think. Many feel they can do a better job on their own and fear a loss of control or a decrease in their current benefits. The big myth is you already pay for everyone else. You have been fooled into believing that you don't. Here's how.

1 Medicare (The old)
2 Medicaid (The poor)
3 No pay (The working poor)
4 Insurance (everyone else)

The problem is that Insurance takes a profit and doesn't cover everyone. The pre-existing condition clause denies coverage to many. This creates a chronically ill welfare class who further burden the system.

YouPeopleAreCrazy: My dad, in the US, died a few years ago of lung/brain cancer. Top class treatment all the way.
Gamma knife treatment 'today'. Aggressive chemo, home visits, personal calls from various doctors.

If he had lived in the UK, he'd probably still (although already dead) be on the waiting list.

Nope, totally wrong. Life threatening illnesses get taken care of quickly. It's generally non-life threatening or elective cases that sit on the waiting lists.

FarkingSean: OK, so let me get this straight...

A national healthcare system only works if people ration it to themselves, and only use it when in dire need?

LMAO.

Lars The Canadian Viking: Interesting how then people always railing against universal health care are Americans who don't have it, ignorance much? We like it fine here, sure there are problems but the system generally works great.

We don't want it! We'd rather pay for what we get when we need it, decide what kind of coverage we want and from what company, and choose the doctors and hospitals we want to be treated at!

You can have your system that "generally works great". I'll work my butt off to have a good job with superior health coverage, and have healthcare that is a bit better than "generally" anything.

/where do canadians go when they cant get good healthcare
//here
///says it all

No... YOU don't want it. Please go STFU now, the rest of us would like to see the lobbyists from the Pharma and HMO companies taken out of Washington and allow our country to be brought into the 21st century like the rest of the world instead of making politicians and drug companies even wealthier at our expense.