Honolulu?

/Prove me wrong - - drive there tonight.

Diapproves.

That would forever ruin the joke "do you know the capital of alaska?"

Am I the only one slightly bothered by the idea that having the state capitol in an inaccessible part of the state is defended on the grounds that it's the only way to prop up the economy of an otherwise economically non-viable city? Since when did it become the job of the government to take wealth from the economically thriving parts of the state and use it to build up and populate a region whose economy is entirely dependent on being subsidized by the government at the cost of the productive regions of the state?

Churchill2004: Am I the only one slightly bothered by the idea that having the state capitol in an inaccessible part of the state is defended on the grounds that it's the only way to prop up the economy of an otherwise economically non-viable city? Since when did it become the job of the government to take wealth from the economically thriving parts of the state and use it to build up and populate a region whose economy is entirely dependent on being subsidized by the government at the cost of the productive regions of the state?

You see the same argument used in support of cashiers instead of those automatic registers.

TheCid: Churchill2004: Am I the only one slightly bothered by the idea that having the state capitol in an inaccessible part of the state is defended on the grounds that it's the only way to prop up the economy of an otherwise economically non-viable city? Since when did it become the job of the government to take wealth from the economically thriving parts of the state and use it to build up and populate a region whose economy is entirely dependent on being subsidized by the government at the cost of the productive regions of the state?

You see the same argument used in support of cashiers instead of those automatic registers.

I didn't know cashiers were taxed and forced to pay for automatic registers several hundred miles away.

Churchill2004: I didn't know cashiers were taxed and forced to pay for automatic registers several hundred miles away.

No, consumers are forced to pay more to pay the salaries of cashiers because we "shouldn't take their jobs away".

It's the same argument on a corporate level rather than a governmental level.

Don't pretend it's not.

TheCid: Churchill2004: I didn't know cashiers were taxed and forced to pay for automatic registers several hundred miles away.

No, consumers are forced to pay more to pay the salaries of cashiers because we "shouldn't take their jobs away".

It's the same argument on a corporate level rather than a governmental level.

Don't pretend it's not.

Actually, it's the opposite argument. I'm arguing that it's wrong to make people pay more taxes because "we shouldn't take their [the government workers in Juneau] jobs away".

Also, consumers aren't forced to pay more. Taxpayers are. Switch grocery stores and see if they haul you to jail for it. Now try to switch who you pay your taxes to.

Churchill2004: Actually, it's the opposite argument. I'm arguing that it's wrong to make people pay more taxes because "we shouldn't take their [the government workers in Juneau] jobs away".


Bah, we've misunderstood each other. You're arguing against it. I'm saying the argument (for keeping the capital where it is) is the same as the grocery store one.

It's just the broken window fallacy.

Also, consumers aren't forced to pay more. Taxpayers are. Switch grocery stores and see if they haul you to jail for it. Now try to switch who you pay your taxes to.

They are if all the stores (or all the stores in an area, anyway) keep the cashiers.

I don't much agree for having the capital in a stupid location; but there are real reasons not to switch- because the short-term cost of switching would be too high.

Off the top of my head, you'd have to get the land in the other city and build the stuff there.

DarthBrooks: Honolulu?

/Prove me wrong - - drive there tonight.

Drop me off in San Juan.

What?! It's close enough!

Churchill2004: Since when did it become the job of the government to take wealth from the economically thriving parts of the state and use it to build up and populate a region whose economy is entirely dependent on being subsidized by the government at the cost of the productive regions of the state?


July 19th 1790. Washington DC.

TheCid: They are if all the stores (or all the stores in an area, anyway) keep the cashiers.

That's not "forced" to. That's simply someone (the store) declining to not voluntarily produce an option. That's like saying you're "forced" to buy a smaller order of fries because the fast food stores stopped offering their various XL size orders. You're not forcibly compelled to buy a smaller order of fries, you just have to work within the conditions set by the other end of a voluntary transaction, or decline to participate in a transaction. You're free to do either. That's not how taxation works- it's either you pay or you go to jail. It's not a voluntary interaction like buying food at a grocery store.

Juneau is almost as large as Rhode Island and Delaware combined. Just a bit of trivia.

/"Rhode" isn't a misspelling Firefox
//What the hell is a "Rhodie"?
///It's just making up words

Foxxinnia: //What the hell is a "Rhodie"?

A POX upon your house!

Churchill2004: TheCid: They are if all the stores (or all the stores in an area, anyway) keep the cashiers.

That's not "forced" to. That's simply someone (the store) declining to not voluntarily produce an option. That's like saying you're "forced" to buy a smaller order of fries because the fast food stores stopped offering their various XL size orders. You're not forcibly compelled to buy a smaller order of fries, you just have to work within the conditions set by the other end of a voluntary transaction, or decline to participate in a transaction. You're free to do either. That's not how taxation works- it's either you pay or you go to jail. It's not a voluntary interaction like buying food at a grocery store.

By that argument, you're also free to not earn any income or own any property or do anything else that would result in being taxed. Look up Hobson's Choice sometime.

If the only way to get food in an area is to buy it from a store, and all the stores do X; you are forced to pay for X.
(Even if you choose to grow a garden or whatever you'd still have to buy the first generation of seeds to plant.)

You libertarian types always seem to forget that it is entirely possible, ESPECIALLY within local markets, for companies to force something on people just as strongly as the government does.

I kinda like the idea. Let's move the state capital to Anchorage, then move the US capital to the recently vacated state house in Juneau. Then we make the area a no fly zone, and set up a naval blockade, and keep everybody there until they get done with business. Hell, just keep 'em there, period.

Only downside I can see is all of the hot air we'd be dumping on the Alaskans.

optikeye: July 19th 1790. Washington DC.

Absolute worst place in the world to build a city. It's on a freaking swamp. Have you even been to DC in August? God, it's horrible. Though at least they had an understandable reasoning about all the existing cities being unsatisfactory to the whole of the Union.

Just from perusing the Wiki article, Juneau seems to have remained the capital mainly because of the repeated intervention of local Juneau economic interests, despite the will of the people of the rest of the state.

Well as long as their Governor lives in the capital they are doing better than my state.

TheCid: By that argument, you're also free to not earn any income or own any property or do anything else that would result in being taxed.

The difference being is that taxation isn't being imposed by one of the voluntary parties to a transaction, it's being imposed coercively by an external third party.

TheCid: If the only way to get food in an area is to buy it from a store, and all the stores do X; you are forced to pay for X.

Arguable depending on the semantics of "forced". I'm talking about coercive force. You're not coerced into paying X in your scenario.

It might be a pseudo-Hobson's choice, in that not paying X makes it difficult or impossible for you to get food, but a Hobson's choice is distinct from extortion. You don't have a right to not be presented with a Hobson's choice, you do have a right to not be extorted from.

Is excited about the prospect for change on his backwater waterfarm.

The argument comes up roughly every 5 years or so, along with Knik Arm Crossing (now the Bridge to Nowhere).

It'll die down soon enough.

Personal taxes don't figure into it.

There's no State income or sales tax.

We depend on Uncle Ted (Stevens - R AK) bringing in the Federal bacon and the taxing of oil companies for our budget.

But the Capital does need to move.

optikeye: July 19th 1790. Washington DC.

Amusingly Virginia has requested the capitol be placed in their state in exchange for their support not once, but twice. See Richmond, capitol of the CSA.

It seems, at least, that they have their price, and are consistent about it.

This isn't the first time they've talked about it. It won't be the last.

/lawmakers and their per-diems

Churchill2004: Am I the only one slightly bothered by the idea that having the state capitol in an inaccessible part of the state is defended on the grounds that it's the only way...

When the state constitution was written they tried to give different regions an economic base. Southeast was to have the capitol and a timber industry. Fairbanks would have the university system. Anchorage had its sheer size.

Well, the Feds killed off the timber industry and Anchorage has been stealing everything it can get its grubby meathooks on. There is nothing more disadvantageous about having the capitol in Juneau than having New York's capitol in Albany.

But you keep on telling us how to run our state. We like it when you think you know more about our business than we do.

Churchill2004: optikeye: July 19th 1790. Washington DC.

Absolute worst place in the world to build a city. It's on a freaking swamp. Have you even been to DC in August? God, it's horrible. Though at least they had an understandable reasoning about all the existing cities being unsatisfactory to the whole of the Union.

Just from perusing the Wiki article, Juneau seems to have remained the capital mainly because of the repeated intervention of local Juneau economic interests, despite the will of the people of the rest of the state.

It wasn't supposed to be a city. It was supposed to be a place where officials from our government meet. That is why they don't vote. They are in fact idiots for living there.

FTFA: Rep. Beth Kerttula, D-Juneau, said the size of the state means there were could access problems no matter where the seat of government was located.

And such as.

Ever been to Frankfort KY?

Might as well need a plane to get there.

/State capitols should have highways to get there

Churchill2004: Arguable depending on the semantics of "forced". I'm talking about coercive force. You're not coerced into paying X in your scenario.

It might be a pseudo-Hobson's choice, in that not paying X makes it difficult or impossible for you to get food, but a Hobson's choice is distinct from extortion. You don't have a right to not be presented with a Hobson's choice, you do have a right to not be extorted from.

I would have to respectfully disagree in this particular case. A choice between food or no food isn't a choice at all.
Withholding food (assuming no alternatives are available) unless you do/pay for X IS coercing you to do/pay for X. They might not have a gun to your head but the end result is the same if you refuse.

Well, at least according to my definitions of "forced" and "choice" anyway. Choice is not just about being able to say "no", it's having a viable alternative.

/ Ok, there are plenty of alternatives in reality
// but we were talking about a hypothetical scenario

Shadow Blasko: Ever been to Frankfort KY?

Might as well need a plane to get there.

/State capitols should have highways to get there

What do you call I-64, then? A dual-carriageway?

DarthBrooks: Honolulu?

/Prove me wrong - - drive there tonight.

i drove there from Haleiwa last week.

FTFA: That, Meyer said, makes it inaccessible to most of state residents lobbiests, except those who can afford are willing to pay to fly there.

FTFT

SurfaceTension: lobbiests

lobby
lobbier
lobbiest

Ed Grubermann: There is nothing more disadvantageous about having the capitol in Juneau than having New York's capitol in Albany.

Except that any New Yorker with a car and $45 worth of gas can drive to Albany. It's $50 just for one person to ride the Alaska State Ferry from Skagway to Juneau, not to mention the 750 miles of driving it takes to get from Fairbanks to Skagway and the thousand miles of kayaking or dogsledding from Nome it takes to get to Fairbanks.

That's lobbyists.

And I thought Frankfort was a shiathole.

/seriously, that town sucks

Dingfod: It's $50 just for one person to ride the Alaska State Ferry from Skagway to Juneau, not to mention the 750 miles of driving it takes to get from Fairbanks to Skagway and the thousand miles of kayaking or dogsledding from Nome it takes to get to Fairbanks.

Not everything will be conveniently nearby when your state is the size of Neptune.

Film at 11.

Ed Grubermann: But you keep on telling us how to run our state. We like it when you think you know more about our business than we do.

We do not seem to have learned from the lesson of Ed Grubermann.

//You, too, shall be honored.

cmunic8r99: i drove there from Haleiwa last week.

OK, tough guy. Try it from Lihue, now.

This thread needs some photos of Alaska's governor, Sarah Palin:

Skleenar: cmunic8r99: i drove there from Haleiwa last week.

OK, tough guy. Try it from Lihue, now.

hell, might as well try it from kailua... kona that is!

GUY FROM ANCHORAGE: "Let's move the capital, I propose. oh, let's say, Anchorage."
GUY FROM JUNEAU: "You're an idiot. Let's actually debate important things."

That was predictable. I say they move it to Deadhorse.

landomojo: Skleenar: cmunic8r99: i drove there from Haleiwa last week.

OK, tough guy. Try it from Lihue, now.

hell, might as well try it from kailua... kona that is!

At least you wouldn't have two Customs checkpoints.

If they move it, move it to Nome.

Last time (that I know of) they tried to move the capitol to Wasilla somebody shot a high tension power line knocking out power to a large part of Anchorage so people couldn't vote on the idea.

/You can drive to Honolulu from Maui on the Superferry now. Kailua-Kona coming soon. Screw you Lihue
//Alaskans biatch more about the Federal Government than anybody but suck more money from it's teat than any other state. Want their cake and eat it too.

From article: "Rep. Beth Kerttula, D-Juneau, said the size of the state means there were could access problems no matter where the seat of government was located."

English, motherfarker, do you speak it?

relaxitsjustme: //Alaskans biatch more about the Federal Government than anybody but suck more money from it's teat than any other state. Want their cake and eat it too.

Shush. Its a birthright. Don't forget how many Alaskans spend that federal money in Oahu every winter.