Submitter I don't think that word means what you think it means. Alternatively you're in favor of war crimes and protecting war criminals. One other possibility is that you're just a childish and nasty Internet troll.

It's a sad day when a Naval Officer has to resign his commission because the government he serves is committing the same acts we tried the Japanese for.

It's just freedom tickling.

At least they are teaching them about right vs. wrong at JAG school. I should go up the road and give them a batch of cookies.

I would like to go back in time and slap the shiat out of Godwin for making that stupid law..

But I guess I'll have to settle for verbally biatchslapping submitter for being such an unimaginative tool.

NewportBarGuy: It's a sad day when a Naval Officer has to resign his commission because the government he serves is committing the same acts we tried the Japanese for.

Not making excuses for for us, but the Japanese wholesale rape, torture and slaughter of civilians during WW2 does not remotely compare to our trangressions. When we start using civilians for live target bayonet training, burning civilians alive, and establishing comfort houses stocked withe Iraqui girls, then maybe they can be compared.

Until then, a comparison is hysterical hyperbole.

fishrockcarving: When we start using civilians for live target bayonet training, burning civilians alive, and establishing comfort houses stocked withe Iraqui girls, then maybe they can be compared.

I guess that makes our torture perfectly OK, then.

The word "compare" does not automatically mean "equate".

2 a: to examine the character or qualities of especially in order to discover resemblances or differences

/Sorry. Pet peeve.

fishrockcarving: Until then, a comparison is hysterical hyperbole.

one step over the line instead of ten is still over the line.

fishrockcarving

Illegal is still illegal. Looks like you're another person who wants the U.S. to be "Thug Nation."

Enjoy the ride.

fishrockcarving: Not making excuses for for us, but the Japanese wholesale rape, torture and slaughter of civilians during WW2 does not remotely compare to our trangressions. When we start using civilians for live target bayonet training, burning civilians alive, and establishing comfort houses stocked withe Iraqui girls, then maybe they can be compared.

Until then, a comparison is hysterical hyperbole.

Granted - you would expect atrocities from the likes of the imperial japanese, the communists and various tin pot dictators in africa. It comes with the territory. It doesn't lessen their culpability any, but it's not unexpected.

This country, however, is supposed to be ABOVE such things. We enshrined in our governments founding document(s) the ideal that 'cruel and unusual punishment' is against our beliefs. Our founding fathers drew a picture for us - and they said very very clearly that torture is wrong, always was wrong and will ALWAYS be wrong. We are to hold ourselves to a higher standard...always.

And that's why all of this is so disappointing. When this thread goes green and hits the main page, I have no doubt that the usual suspects will jump in here and play 'internet tough guy' about how they'd torture anyone any time anywhere to prove how 'american' they really are....but how 'american' can you be if you disregard the sentiments in the documents that define what 'being american' means?

i'm really starting to wonder about this country. I see individual rights being lost, and politicans listening to their bank accounts more than the rank and file that keep this country moving and working.

"B-b-b-b-but it works on 24!!!"

/obligatory.

Thousands of Japanese military personnel were convicted of war crimes. Regardless of what others were convicted for, I believe some were convicted solely for using torture in interrogating prisoners.

Sgt Otter

Ugh, I hate idiots who use the 24 argument (I understand that you were being satirical there). It's a TV show. Suspension of disbelief, people.

And yes, it is a sad day when we have to torture people while at the same time claiming we are a beacon of freedom in the world.

Alacritous: I would like to go back in time and slap the shiat out of Godwin for making that stupid law

The fact they're willing to resign over this clearly demonstrates that they're exactly the sort of person we DON'T need to be resigning right now.

fishrockcarving: NewportBarGuy: It's a sad day when a Naval Officer has to resign his commission because the government he serves is committing the same acts we tried the Japanese for.

Not making excuses for for us, but the Japanese wholesale rape, torture and slaughter of civilians during WW2 does not remotely compare to our trangressions. When we start using civilians for live target bayonet training, burning civilians alive, and establishing comfort houses stocked withe Iraqui girls, then maybe they can be compared.

Until then, a comparison is hysterical hyperbole.

Fark you.

We tried, convicted, and executed some of them for waterboarding prisoners.
While the rest of your points are certainly valid, they are not relevant to this discussion.

And as to raping, well we did have that one episode where a child was raped to get information out of the mother - or maybe not, as nobody wants to admit anything - can you blame them?

Good for him.

I'm glad Bush is at least issuing in a period of American cynicism. The backlash against all this bullshiat is going to be refreshing.

Weaver95: fishrockcarving: Not making excuses for for us, but the Japanese wholesale rape, torture and slaughter of civilians during WW2 does not remotely compare to our trangressions. When we start using civilians for live target bayonet training, burning civilians alive, and establishing comfort houses stocked withe Iraqui girls, then maybe they can be compared.

Until then, a comparison is hysterical hyperbole.

Granted - you would expect atrocities from the likes of the imperial japanese, the communists and various tin pot dictators in africa. It comes with the territory. It doesn't lessen their culpability any, but it's not unexpected.

This country, however, is supposed to be ABOVE such things. We enshrined in our governments founding document(s) the ideal that 'cruel and unusual punishment' is against our beliefs. Our founding fathers drew a picture for us - and they said very very clearly that torture is wrong, always was wrong and will ALWAYS be wrong. We are to hold ourselves to a higher standard...always.

And that's why all of this is so disappointing. When this thread goes green and hits the main page, I have no doubt that the usual suspects will jump in here and play 'internet tough guy' about how they'd torture anyone any time anywhere to prove how 'american' they really are....but how 'american' can you be if you disregard the sentiments in the documents that define what 'being american' means?

i'm really starting to wonder about this country. I see individual rights being lost, and politicans listening to their bank accounts more than the rank and file that keep this country moving and working.

Thank you.
Nice to have you batting for our side.
No kidding.
^{Friggin socialist! ;-)}

It is going to be interesting to see the pardons Bush will issue just before leaving office.

That's OK, though. For really big things like war crimes a future Attorney General can always extradite to another country.

Maybe Germany would be willing to issue some indictments if our next president asked nicely.


_{/With a Democratic House, a filibuster proof majority in the Senate and a Democrat in the White House maybe the Democrats will somehow scrape together enough political courage to actually do the right thing for once.
//I somehow doubt it.}

Riche:
With a Democratic House, a filibuster proof majority in the Senate and a Democrat in the White House maybe the Democrats will somehow scrape together enough political courage to actually do the right thing for once.

For one thing, that's not gonna happen.

For another, even if they did get all of those things by some electoral miracle (finding an actual Presidential candidate people will actually vote for might be a good start), what makes you think they'd suddenly start "doing the right thing" when they've proved how amazingly bad at it they already are?

Remember the "100 hours?" Which became "100 hours over the course of a few weeks?" Which became "100 weeks," and seem to be turning into "reelect us after a few years and we might get around to it, you pathetic suckers..."

Alacritous: I would like to go back in time and slap the shiat out of Godwin for making that stupid law..

But I guess I'll have to settle for verbally biatchslapping submitter for being such an unimaginative tool.

He's alive and well, you know.

cirby: For one thing, that's not gonna happen.

I guess we'll see, won't we.
You might be right, I am not too happy with the Democrats either.

For another, even if they did get all of those things by some electoral miracle (finding an actual Presidential candidate people will actually vote for might be a good start), what makes you think they'd suddenly start "doing the right thing" when they've proved how amazingly bad at it they already are?

Oh, you mean because the Republicans have so many excellent candidates to choose from.
I see.


Remember the "100 hours?" Which became "100 hours over the course of a few weeks?" Which became "100 weeks," and seem to be turning into "reelect us after a few years and we might get around to it, you pathetic suckers..."

You know, I hate that lie. The Democrats managed to pass four out of the six bills they said they would. Minimum wage ring a bell with you?

Now, let's examine the big issues the Republicans said they would deal with...

Abortion
Gay Marriage
Returning integrity to the White House - Can't help but snicker on that one.
Catching Osama Bin Laden - Oh that's right, the guy that orchestrated
3,000 American deaths isn't important. Damn, we are a forgiving nation.

Physician - heal thyself.

nictamer: He's alive and well, you know.

I meant BEFORE he said that stupid thing. It's too late now.

Should have got the "hero" tag.

Right now I'd rather have more Democrats in Congress rather than more Republicans. Democrats might be slow, but Republicans simply don't give a fark and their little party has got to go NOW.

cirby: For another, even if they did get all of those things by some electoral miracle (finding an actual Presidential candidate people will actually vote for might be a good start), what makes you think they'd suddenly start "doing the right thing" when they've proved how amazingly bad at it they already are?

Maybe the Democrats could get something done if the goddam GOP wouldn't be setting filibuster records, and the goddam president wouldn't veto (or threaten to veto) every goddam bill that comes his way including the goddam bill that he claimed was necessary to fight terror.

Where are all the patriotic, support-the-troops, law-and-order-believing Republicans to defend this guy and get to the bottom of his concerns?

And for that matter, where are all of the Democratic office holders, who lack even the excuse of party loyalty for not holding torturers to account?

Weaver95: This country, however, is supposed to be ABOVE such things.

I've said this before (I feel like a broken record):

We're supposed to be the good guys, not the "not as bad" guys.

Something tells me that Jack Bauer will be visiting this guy sooner or later.

Whatsleft: I'm glad Bush is at least issuing in a period of American cynicism. The backlash against all this bullshiat is going to be refreshing.



It's starting to look more and more like Bush has doomed the Republican party to defeat for the next 20 years.

Goodfella: Whatsleft: I'm glad Bush is at least issuing in a period of American cynicism. The backlash against all this bullshiat is going to be refreshing.



It's starting to look more and more like Bush has doomed the Republican party to defeat for the next 20 years.

historians will have to determine GWB's success or failure.

after all, historians are still debating George Washington's presidency.

/i suspect there is a difference

I always giggle at people who think that the USA is or ever was "the good guys".

The history of "this great nation" is as filled with skeletons as any other. Our people, with the sanction of our government, have raped, killed, tortured, maimed, stole, and more over our short history.
Our government has directly caused the deaths of millions and has orchestrated the collapse of half a dozen nations. We have, as a nation, brought the entire continent of Africa to ruin.

We bring violent dictators to power, destroy nations, put new violent dictators in place, and then fund and arm their historical enemies so that the bloodshed can continue.
We do all of this not for a better life for the general population, but for a better life for the men who run our government.

This is all true.
It always has been.
Since the beginning.
But history is written by the victors.

Very few remember the American atrocities of WWI, because the records were destroyed and those with the memories are dead.
Very few remember the American atrocities of WWII, because the records are gone and anything that is remembered is modified and justified away under the cloud of what the losing side was doing.
In Vietnam our "heroes" tortured and raped and occupied and killed and treated people like animals, all to try and subjugate their will. All under direct orders.

You think there will be warcrimes trials THIS time?
Why would there be?
We're the same evil and corrupt nation we've always been.
Run by the same evil and corrupt men we have been since we formed "this great nation".

PHILIPPINES DATING!

FTW!!

Weaver95:

This country, however, is supposed to be ABOVE such things. We enshrined in our governments founding document(s) the ideal that 'cruel and unusual punishment' is against our beliefs. Our founding fathers drew a picture for us - and they said very very clearly that torture is wrong, always was wrong and will ALWAYS be wrong. We are to hold ourselves to a higher standard...always.

And that's why all of this is so disappointing. When this thread goes green and hits the main page, I have no doubt that the usual suspects will jump in here and play 'internet tough guy' about how they'd torture anyone any time anywhere to prove how 'american' they really are....but how 'american' can you be if you disregard the sentiments in the documents that define what 'being american' means?

i'm really starting to wonder about this country. I see individual rights being lost, and politicans listening to their bank accounts more than the rank and file that keep this country moving and working.

Now that's just dirty socialist talk. You get back to your books by that Rand guy and leave this thread to the real Americans.

Goodfella: Whatsleft: I'm glad Bush is at least issuing in a period of American cynicism. The backlash against all this bullshiat is going to be refreshing.



It's starting to look more and more like Bush has doomed the Republican party to defeat for the next 20 years.

You can thank Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and their crowd for some of those 20 years.

fishrockcarving: Not making excuses for for us, but the Japanese wholesale rape, torture and slaughter of civilians during WW2 does not remotely compare to our trangressions. When we start using civilians for live target bayonet training, burning civilians alive, and establishing comfort houses stocked withe Iraqui girls, then maybe they can be compared.

Until then, a comparison is hysterical hyperbole

This.

There is a WORLD of differnce between using aggressive means of interogation to SAVE lifes versus using torture to intentionally inflict pain, suffering or disfigurment for their own sake.

1) Only three people were waterboarded
2) The longest lasted only 1 minute 30 seconds
3) The DEM CONGRESSIONAL leaders knew about and only wondered if
it was a strong enough method
4) It is a sad day when a person put the discomfort of an
enemy over the the lives of innocent citizens; I know people
who say it is better for a 1000 AMERICANS to DIE than to use
any kind of aggressive methods on terrorists.

And if you think that makes you morally superior, how do you justify letting those 1000 people die for the sake of your 'morals'?

wowzer97pooh: G
You can thank Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and their crowd for some of those 20 years.

If you manage to say thank you directly to Jerry Falwell, I'd like to hire you to perform at my next birthday party.

/dead for eight months
//would be an awesome trick though
///ZombieJerryFalwell will rule the world

mfaby
There is a WORLD of differnce between using aggressive means of interogation to SAVE lifes versus using torture to intentionally inflict pain, suffering or disfigurment for their own sake.

Have you ever tortured or been tortured? Held in a camp as a POW and starved, dehydrated, and otherwise deprived?
I suppose not.
Let me tell you something very very important about torture.
It doesn't work.

I have been perplexed as I view anti-torture training of Americans. Perplexed that we are so sure our captured soldiers will not submit to torture, will give false information, will give information specifically designed to be given under torture.... yet we do not think that other people have come up with this brilliant strategy.

Stories abound about the information that has come from these tortured enemy soldiers. How it has been acted upon and found to be either total fabrication or a trap. How it has never led us to anything useful.

So if all we've ever gotten from torture is worthless information that didn't save a single American life... what are we using to justify continuing to violate the very principles that we say we are fighting to give people halfway around the world?

mfaby: fishrockcarving: Not making excuses for for us, but the Japanese wholesale rape, torture and slaughter of civilians during WW2 does not remotely compare to our trangressions. When we start using civilians for live target bayonet training, burning civilians alive, and establishing comfort houses stocked withe Iraqui girls, then maybe they can be compared.

Until then, a comparison is hysterical hyperbole

This.

There is a WORLD of differnce between using aggressive means of interogation to SAVE lifes versus using torture to intentionally inflict pain, suffering or disfigurment for their own sake.

1) Only three people were waterboarded
2) The longest lasted only 1 minute 30 seconds
3) The DEM CONGRESSIONAL leaders knew about and only wondered if
it was a strong enough method
4) It is a sad day when a person put the discomfort of an
enemy over the the lives of innocent citizens; I know people
who say it is better for a 1000 AMERICANS to DIE than to use
any kind of aggressive methods on terrorists.

And if you think that makes you morally superior, how do you justify letting those 1000 people die for the sake of your 'morals'?

Are you willing to die to protect the ideas that America was founded on? Because those 1000 people do just that if no one is tortured in order to save them. You are assuming everyone is a coward. Because I think a lot of people would die to protect what America strives to be, and Bush/Cheney and torture supporters are NOT those people.

mfaby: And if you think that makes you morally superior, how do you justify letting those 1000 people die for the sake of your 'morals'?

My your God have mercy on what soul you have left.

lahuman8: Are you willing to die to protect the ideas that America was founded on? Because those 1000 people do just that if no one is tortured in order to save them.

Pardon my French, but those 1000 people are a farking figment of mfaby's imagination.

He's using a storybook fable to justify the unjustifiable.

He is a disgrace to our race.

Aevum: I always giggle at people who think that the USA is or ever was "the good guys".

The history of "this great nation" is as filled with skeletons as any other. Our people, with the sanction of our government, have raped, killed, tortured, maimed, stole, and more over our short history.
Our government has directly caused the deaths of millions and has orchestrated the collapse of half a dozen nations. We have, as a nation, brought the entire continent of Africa to ruin.

We bring violent dictators to power, destroy nations, put new violent dictators in place, and then fund and arm their historical enemies so that the bloodshed can continue.
We do all of this not for a better life for the general population, but for a better life for the men who run our government.

This is all true.
It always has been.
Since the beginning.
But history is written by the victors.

Very few remember the American atrocities of WWI, because the records were destroyed and those with the memories are dead.
Very few remember the American atrocities of WWII, because the records are gone and anything that is remembered is modified and justified away under the cloud of what the losing side was doing.
In Vietnam our "heroes" tortured and raped and occupied and killed and treated people like animals, all to try and subjugate their will. All under direct orders.

You think there will be warcrimes trials THIS time?
Why would there be?
We're the same evil and corrupt nation we've always been.
Run by the same evil and corrupt men we have been since we formed "this great nation".

Hyperbole aside (and there is a shiatload of it in this post), at lease our nation still has the chance to have the better angels of our nature score a victory now and again.

I know I sure am not going to stop working for that end.

curmudge: I don't think that word means what you think it means. Alternatively you're in favor of war crimes and protecting war criminals. One other possibility is that you're just a childish and nasty Internet troll.

Either you are a troll and/or a dumbass. Torture describes waterboarding very well. We used to put people in prison for commiting and/or ordering such offenses. Now they get Presidential medals.

Aevum: I always giggle at people who think that the USA is or ever was "the good guys".

The history of "this great nation" is as filled with skeletons as any other. Our people, with the sanction of our government, have raped, killed, tortured, maimed, stole, and more over our short history.

...

You think there will be warcrimes trials THIS time?
Why would there be?
We're the same evil and corrupt nation we've always been.
Run by the same evil and corrupt men we have been since we formed "this great nation".

If that's the way it's "always been" and will likely always be, why bother to get outraged about it (let alone loudly complain and try to do something)? Although I don't think it's your intent, your argument suggests that America is so inherently "evil and corrupt" that it's beyond redemption and that nothing can be done about it. Objecting to water-boarding is thus just a waste of time and energy.

Best use of the Sad Tag in a long time...

Seriously, I grew up believing the US was the proverbial "city on a hill."

Now this Waterboarding/Iraq War/Bush Administration Corruption crap happens...

I feel really disillusioned. I feel like the kid who grew up in the Soviet Union, believing they lived in a communist paradise, only to have the Soviet Union collapse on them, and find out that the West had an average per capita income that was 3x+ that in the USSR...

AirForceVet the word I was referring to was Godwin. You may want to take a course in reading comprehension. Of course you being a veteran of the Air Force would explain a certain amount of dimness on your part.

Now that's a troll, I'd feel dirty but . . .

curmudge: the word I was referring to was Godwin.

How does it not apply?

Did you read the article?

Waterboarding or cut off their heads!
I really have a terrible time deciding which is worse.
Decisions, decisions.....

mfaby: There is a WORLD of differnce between using aggressive means of interogation to SAVE lifes versus using torture to intentionally inflict pain, suffering or disfigurment for their own sake.

I'll join the others in jumping on this stupidity. Torturing to save lives is a MYTH. It's total bullshiat.

torquestripe: Waterboarding or cut off their heads!
I really have a terrible time deciding which is worse.
Decisions, decisions.....

Why should you ever have to?

Leftist sort in the military failed to make a name for himself in the military and now counts on the leftist hate machine of Kos to do it for him.