Sorry, subby, but even mullosks buried in the Arctic Ocean hiding from walruses knew this was going to happen back in '03.

Why it failed to register in the brains of the current mal-administration is a puzzle for the ages.

2wolves: Why it failed to register in the brains of the current mal-administration is a puzzle for the ages.

In 2002 the Bush administration was only vaguely aware that there were two different sects of Islam in Iraq with different beliefs and political agendae. You expected them to grasp that there was a third group too!?

Don't forget it was the Kurds who were gassed by the US-supplied nerve agents under Hussein. They were the victims we cried about. Saddam gassed his own people, the headlines screamed. That was one of the huge excuses BushCo used to justify invading Iraq illegally at the time. Now we're farking them again.

How farking soon we forget.

I predicted all of this, you know--all of it!

Hmmmmm....turkey.

What about the Turkish aspect?

The Kurdish-led government in Iraq does almost nothing to stop the movements and activities of the PKK terror group. They (the PKK) has bombed countless civilians throughout Turkey, killed soldiers, and recently had kidnapped a bunch of them and dragged them back to Iraq...What did the Kurds expect would happen by doing nothing to prevent this group? Israel bombed Lebanon up and down over 1 soldier I believe, so the Kurds should honestly consider themselves lucky that Turkey has shown so much restraint. The Iraqi Kurds should be working to rid their territory of the PKK, why aren't they...is it because they secretly support them?

Does it have to become part of every American plan to assume that every other culture on this planet has no sense of taking care of itself? How do you account in your planning for the fact that most of the third world borderlines on the land of savages? What happened to people working together for the common good?

/naive, of course
/New Orleans and Detroit excluded of course

If Kurds are so much more ethical and smarter than the other towel headed camel farkers, why are the doing terrorism in Turkey?

I try very, very hard to eschew my war-mongering ways, but if the Kurds ever finally get hacked off enough to move militarily against Turkey, it's gonna get downright entertaining. Turkey's got them outnumbered 2-1 as far as standing military goes, but the Peshmerga are nasty, nasty fighters. Were it to stay Turkey -vs- Kurdistan, the Peshmerga would be at the Mediterranean in a month. Of course, Iran and Syria would never let that happen.

And JamUhn: the silent support of the PKK stems from the widespread Turkish abuse of native Kurds. While the actions of the PKK have been violent and criminal, the Turkish response in the past has been barbaric. Martial law, forced relocations, mass arrests and killings... if it were your second cousin under their boot, you'd have a soft spot for the guys screwing them over, too.

JamUhn: What about the Turkish aspect?

The Kurdish-led government in Iraq does almost nothing to stop the movements and activities of the PKK terror group. They (the PKK) has bombed countless civilians throughout Turkey, killed soldiers, and recently had kidnapped a bunch of them and dragged them back to Iraq...What did the Kurds expect would happen by doing nothing to prevent this group? Israel bombed Lebanon up and down over 1 soldier I believe, so the Kurds should honestly consider themselves lucky that Turkey has shown so much restraint. The Iraqi Kurds should be working to rid their territory of the PKK, why aren't they...is it because they secretly support them?

probably

How about making sure we don't alienate Turkey? At least they have a stable Islamic republic, peacable relations with Israel, and a decent ground military worth staying friends with.

Riotcow: How about making sure we don't alienate Turkey?

not asking them to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide (which occured before there was Turkey) would be a good start.

demanding the current government of Turkey to apologize for the genocide of Armenians at the hands of Ottomans is like demanding Norway to apologize for pillaging by vikings

Bloody Vikings!

Occam's Chainsaw: I try very, very hard to eschew my war-mongering ways, but if the Kurds ever finally get hacked off enough to move militarily against Turkey, it's gonna get downright entertaining. Turkey's got them outnumbered 2-1 as far as standing military goes, but the Peshmerga are nasty, nasty fighters. Were it to stay Turkey -vs- Kurdistan, the Peshmerga would be at the Mediterranean in a month. Of course, Iran and Syria would never let that happen.

And JamUhn: the silent support of the PKK stems from the widespread Turkish abuse of native Kurds. While the actions of the PKK have been violent and criminal, the Turkish response in the past has been barbaric. Martial law, forced relocations, mass arrests and killings... if it were your second cousin under their boot, you'd have a soft spot for the guys screwing them over, too.

This is a good analysis of the situation; take it from a neutral party that has physically been there. Neither of these two groups are lover boys; while I am more morally sympathetic to the Kurds the concerns of the Turks are valid. In the long run, I think the whole middle east would be better off with a country for the Kurds. But then who wants peace? Too much money to be made fighting.

We get out of Iraq now and leave it up to Turkey. They touched it last.

nobodyUwannaknow: demanding the current government of Turkey to apologize for the genocide of Armenians at the hands of Ottomans is like demanding Norway to apologize for pillaging by vikings

Turkey should not have to apologize. The problem is not the lack of apology, it's the enforced national denial of the genocide. Norway is not threatening people with jail for writing about Viking atrocities.

JamUhn: What about the Turkish aspect?

The Kurdish-led government in Iraq does almost nothing to stop the movements and activities of the PKK terror group. They (the PKK) has bombed countless civilians throughout Turkey, killed soldiers, and recently had kidnapped a bunch of them and dragged them back to Iraq...What did the Kurds expect would happen by doing nothing to prevent this group? Israel bombed Lebanon up and down over 1 soldier I believe, so the Kurds should honestly consider themselves lucky that Turkey has shown so much restraint. The Iraqi Kurds should be working to rid their territory of the PKK, why aren't they...is it because they secretly support them?

look if you don't hate america you can get the hell out of this thread. preferably you can express your hatred of the united states in picture format, that is especially poignant.

Occam's Chainsaw: And JamUhn: the silent support of the PKK stems from the widespread Turkish abuse of native Kurds. While the actions of the PKK have been violent and criminal, the Turkish response in the past has been barbaric. Martial law, forced relocations, mass arrests and killings... if it were your second cousin under their boot, you'd have a soft spot for the guys screwing them over, too.

Yes, I realize many people like to talk about the misdeeds of the past, but fortunately we are in the present. When, in this past year the PKK committed multiple acts of terrorism against civilians to cripple Turkey's tourism industry in addition to attacks on their military. Considering this, the current actions of Turkey are not at all barbaric and pale in comparison to the actions taken by more aggressive countries to similar attacks. If it is peace that the Kurds in Iraq want, they surely would have it if they would cooperate in defeating the PKK.

So, while it is certainly normal for them to have sympathy to the situation of any Kurd, it is not at all just to support them no matter what atrocities they may cause. Would you aid or turn a blind eye to your second cousin if they were a murderer?

JamUhn

And the Turks arrest people for speaking Kurdish in public, and the whole thing started out when the army fired on trade union protesters.

This isn't a case of the poor, innocent Turks suffering terrorism at the hands of the barbaric Kurds. It's a decades-long conflict with plenty of civilians murdered(or just oppressed) on both sides.

Turkey vs. Iraq could be the flash point that causes the region to boil into war.

WW3 NEXT WEEK CALLING IT NOW

Oh also calling that CNN starts talking about WW3 from this conflict tomorrow after they lurk on fark for discussion topics.

JamUhn: Yes, I realize many people like to talk about the misdeeds of the past, but fortunately we are in the present. When, in this past year the PKK committed multiple acts of terrorism against civilians to cripple Turkey's tourism industry in addition to attacks on their military. Considering this, the current actions of Turkey are not at all barbaric and pale in comparison to the actions taken by more aggressive countries to similar attacks. If it is peace that the Kurds in Iraq want, they surely would have it if they would cooperate in defeating the PKK.

So, while it is certainly normal for them to have sympathy to the situation of any Kurd, it is not at all just to support them no matter what atrocities they may cause. Would you aid or turn a blind eye to your second cousin if they were a murderer?

Well, that would depend. Had my second cousin knifed a pregnant woman in cold blood, I'd be all for frying the bastard. If my second cousin been summarily abused for decades and suddenly lost it, I'd tend toward sympathy.

You're discounting "the past" as if anything that didn't happen in the last calendar year is no longer relevant. Fact is, this conflict has been going on for damn near 100 years, and the Turks account for the lion's share of the atrocities. The only reason they've been well-behaved for the past few years is because they wanted admission to the EU, and the EU put the thumbscrews to them over their treatment of Kurds.

Don't get me wrong, I in no way see the PKK as blameless. I'm not familiar with their ROE and whether or not they consider civilians to be non-targets. Regardless, they've caused civilian deaths and injuries, which is patently unacceptable. My sympathy for their cause arises because I see 100 years of a contentious people railing at foreign rule, and at every turn said foreign ruler has used the biggest boot they could lay hands on to quash rebellion. It's the Irish conflict all over again.

As to the portion of your response I've bolded: what the Turks have done is unacceptable, period, and borders on ethnic cleansing. They are in no way to be lauded for not being even more barbaric than they already have been. "Better than terrible" is not "good".

Riotcow: How about making sure we don't alienate Turkey? At least they have a stable Islamic republic, peacable relations with Israel, and a decent ground military worth staying friends with.

This, my God this.

Throw a bone to the only country in the region that is still a secular state for the moment and one of the few that would have anything to do with the US in the long-term.

Kurdistan is going to be a major PITA for the next hundred years, no matter what we do or don't do with Turkey: Kurds have treaty grudges (legit ones) with dozens of countries, their population is split between three sovereign nations in which they all constitute a minority and they have 7000 year-old border disputes, with documentation to back it all up.

/that place is going to be the facepalm of the next century.

deadsanta: /that place is going to be the facepalm of the next century.

At the rate the so called Western World is going, I think the 2100's are among the least of our concerns at the moment. Let's worry about the 2000's and the facepalm of this century. We're not even into the century's first decade, and we already have war criminals that approach evil upon the level of the 1900's Hitler.

starsrift: deadsanta: /that place is going to be the facepalm of the next century.

At the rate the so called Western World is going, I think the 2100's are among the least of our concerns at the moment. Let's worry about the 2000's and the facepalm of this century. We're not even into the century's first decade, and we already have war criminals that approach evil upon the level of the 1900's Hitler.

you hateful bigots are so raping the name of hitler that when something bad actually happens no1 is gna believe u. learn perspective.

starsrift: deadsanta: /that place is going to be the facepalm of the next century.

At the rate the so called Western World is going, I think the 2100's are among the least of our concerns at the moment. Let's worry about the 2000's and the facepalm of this century. We're not even into the century's first decade, and we already have war criminals that approach evil upon the level of the 1900's Hitler.


4/10.

aeai: starsrift: deadsanta: /that place is going to be the facepalm of the next century.

At the rate the so called Western World is going, I think the 2100's are among the least of our concerns at the moment. Let's worry about the 2000's and the facepalm of this century. We're not even into the century's first decade, and we already have war criminals that approach evil upon the level of the 1900's Hitler.

you hateful bigots are so raping the name of hitler that when something bad actually happens no1 is gna believe u. learn perspective.

WTF are you talking about "when something bad actually happens"?

Bad things are happening right now! "Bad things" have been happening for the last five years! It's not getting any better, it's only gotten more and more worse. There are war criminals at the helm of powerful democratic countries, and their citizens are best apathetic, and at worst, openly supportive of their policies.

This is not a fantasy. This is not hyperbole. This is absolutely real, and it is happening right this very minute.

I'm not sure what constitutes "raping the name of Hitler". When one seperates Chancellor Hitler from the war crimes attributed to Mengele, by far the most evil of the war criminals of that day, it becomes remarkably easy to parallel the National Socialist German Worker's Party with other political parties of our day, and power figures of that day with officials in power, right now. This is not "crying wolf", this is calling a spade, a spade.
Please, educate me further.

the kurds want a homeland that includes a bunch of turkey

deadsanta: Riotcow: How about making sure we don't alienate Turkey? At least they have a stable Islamic republic, peacable relations with Israel, and a decent ground military worth staying friends with.

This, my God this.

Throw a bone to the only country in the region that is still a secular state for the moment and one of the few that would have anything to do with the US in the long-term.

Kurdistan is going to be a major PITA for the next hundred years, no matter what we do or don't do with Turkey: Kurds have treaty grudges (legit ones) with dozens of countries, their population is split between three sovereign nations in which they all constitute a minority and they have 7000 year-old border disputes, with documentation to back it all up.

/that place is going to be the facepalm of the next century.


This.

Look it just isn't that easy to class one side or the other as right or wrong. The Kurd people in Turkey are treated like second rate...not even citizens, second rate people. They are oppressed and their entire culture is being wiped out by the Turkey government.

The Kurds also have a legitimate claim over the areas they are in should be their own country. While they are spread out over 3 countries, there is a clear and defined population centers in the regions they claim and basically control in some cases.


While I'm all for keeping our ally in Turkey, I can't discount the fact that the Iraqie Kurds are one of few remaining things in Iraq that are going right. While the rest of the country there is going to hell, they have working power, water, schools, and attacks in the region are few.

starsrift: aeai: starsrift: deadsanta: /that place is going to be the facepalm of the next century.

At the rate the so called Western World is going, I think the 2100's are among the least of our concerns at the moment. Let's worry about the 2000's and the facepalm of this century. We're not even into the century's first decade, and we already have war criminals that approach evil upon the level of the 1900's Hitler.

you hateful bigots are so raping the name of hitler that when something bad actually happens no1 is gna believe u. learn perspective.

WTF are you talking about "when something bad actually happens"?

Bad things are happening right now! "Bad things" have been happening for the last five years! It's not getting any better, it's only gotten more and more worse. There are war criminals at the helm of powerful democratic countries, and their citizens are best apathetic, and at worst, openly supportive of their policies.

This is not a fantasy. This is not hyperbole. This is absolutely real, and it is happening right this very minute.

I'm not sure what constitutes "raping the name of Hitler". When one seperates Chancellor Hitler from the war crimes attributed to Mengele, by far the most evil of the war criminals of that day, it becomes remarkably easy to parallel the National Socialist German Worker's Party with other political parties of our day, and power figures of that day with officials in power, right now. This is not "crying wolf", this is calling a spade, a spade.
Please, educate me further.



I have a feeling they assumed you were comparing Bush to Hitler which a lot of people seem to favor doing. Also the 'Omgosh its another Hitler' thing is kinda overplayed.



/Doesn't hate Bush
//Doesn't like Bush
///Contrasting opinions on the war in Iraq.
////Always willing to share.
//never get ot use slashies.

Actually the Kurdish language has been legalized in Turkey. The EU insisted as part of the ongoning negotiations for turkish accession. They still haven't come clean wiht their Armenian neighbors, but my guess would be that they are on the right path.

Still need improvement though.

One funny aspect of the story was that the American president's nickname, "W", was illegal in Turkey until a few years ago. You may recall W was interfering with the negotiations between the EU and Turkey a few years ago demanding immediate accession and denying that Turkey was mistreating anyone. There is no W in Turkish but there is in Kurdish, which is why you could publish it.

torch: Don't forget it was the Kurds who were gassed by the US-supplied nerve agents under Hussein. They were the victims we cried about. Saddam gassed his own people, the headlines screamed. That was one of the huge excuses BushCo used to justify invading Iraq illegally at the time. Now we're farking them again.

How farking soon we forget.

QFT

21-7-b: the kurds want a homeland that includes a bunch of turkey

and Iran, and of couse the portion of Iraq they already have.

Can't say that I blame them.

Also understand why those nations that would have to give up territory for a new independant republic of Kurdistan are opposed to the idea.

starsrift: aeai: starsrift: deadsanta: /that place is going to be the facepalm of the next century.

At the rate the so called Western World is going, I think the 2100's are among the least of our concerns at the moment. Let's worry about the 2000's and the facepalm of this century. We're not even into the century's first decade, and we already have war criminals that approach evil upon the level of the 1900's Hitler.

you hateful bigots are so raping the name of hitler that when something bad actually happens no1 is gna believe u. learn perspective.

WTF are you talking about "when something bad actually happens"?

Bad things are happening right now! "Bad things" have been happening for the last five years! It's not getting any better, it's only gotten more and more worse. There are war criminals at the helm of powerful democratic countries, and their citizens are best apathetic, and at worst, openly supportive of their policies.

This is not a fantasy. This is not hyperbole. This is absolutely real, and it is happening right this very minute.

I'm not sure what constitutes "raping the name of Hitler". When one seperates Chancellor Hitler from the war crimes attributed to Mengele, by far the most evil of the war criminals of that day, it becomes remarkably easy to parallel the National Socialist German Worker's Party with other political parties of our day, and power figures of that day with officials in power, right now. This is not "crying wolf", this is calling a spade, a spade.
Please, educate me further.

oh yes "paralelling" hitler to, well, anything you don't like is "easy" for a large number of retarded semi-literate internet champions. the hatred and bigotry you transmit about yourself when you do it though is the most telling.

Turkey is a part of NATO, yes? Therefore, if memory serves, they can invoke the common defense part of that treaty if (when?) Iraq/Kurdistan makes things in Eastern Turkey (Turkish Kurdistan) untenable for continued Turkish occupation. That would certainly place the United States in a pickle. When I looked at this a few years back, I came to the realization that the best answer for this is for Turkey to cede parts of their country to the Kurds, and to buy this decision off with getting Turkey into the EU. However, the EU does not really seem to want a Muslim country as part of their mix, and any Kurdish state that does not include those bits of the oil-rich Iraqi Kurdistan seems doomed to fail. Getting Iraq to cede those bits to Kurdistan, while probably A.OK with the Shia,would be met with strong resistance from the Sunnis (esp where this concerns Mosul, which I believe is nominally Sunni but only because Saddam Hussein strongly "suggested" Sunni families settle in the area). I do not think that the Peshmerga will be at the Med next week if things came to blows between them and the Turks, but I do think that Eastern Turkey will start looking like a mountainous version of Somalia.

Turkey should never have been allowed into NATO. Ever.