You mean like all the "gifts" we're currently giving to the military-industrial complex? At least if we gave them to ourselves I'd be getting something back on the dollar.

I doubt many "huge" government programs are funded by your taxes, submitter. Unless they have a program to give a handful of crumbs to the birds once or twice a year.

Thank you TiltedKilt. Now I don't have to post that.

As long as there's a gift receipt in the box, I can always take it back and get something I want.

If contraception is added to universal health care, it may wind up cheaper overall in the long run. It's a lot less money going to pay for unnecessary emergency room visits for the poor, and most likely a lot less money than is taken out of our paychecks for plan enrollment.

That's why I never pay my taxes.

Just kidding. Please don't come get me, IRS.

RodneyToady: If contraception is added to universal health care, it may wind up cheaper overall in the long run

a government health care plan will be set up by politicians. who will be influenced by anti-abortion advocates who will never allow that to happen.

that's the problem with universal health care--the lobbyists and the vote-whoring congressmen will be deciding what coverage we get

OH NO NOT HEALTHCARE, ALTERNATIVE ENERGY, BRINGING THE TROOPS HOME AND EDUCATION OH GOD! I want a Ron Paul utopia where we all have shotguns and leather vests with spikes on them to protect our gold cache and build our own roads with our bare hands.


(And I hate Hillary.)

The gifts make the connection, of course, but check out what the gifts are: universal health care, bring the troops home, etc.

I already pay for healthcare, through the nose, in fact - it really won't bother me if I write the check to someone different. Bringing the troops home doesn't sound terribly expensive, actually according to my calculations NOT bringing the troops home would be kind of pricey.

/Totally not voting for Hillary
//Doesn't mean I like the bashing

Mordant: I doubt many "huge" government programs are funded by your taxes, submitter. Unless they have a program to give a handful of crumbs to the birds once or twice a year.

Actually, I think Ted Stevens put an earmark in this year's budget, just for that.

Universal health care? Yeah, right. Like they'll divert funds from anything of their own pet programs to help us out. We can't afford it, I think.

TiltedKilt: At least if we gave them to ourselves I'd be getting something back on the dollar.

Do you think we'd stop giving the gifts to the military if we got these gifts? No we'd continue to spend money we don't have.

mryoop789: Universal health care?...We can't afford it, I think.

We already have universal health care we can't afford.

You can walk into any emergency room right now and you will be seen and treated, regardless of your ablility to pay. The government picks up the tab.

Universal PreK...Get 'em early...

If you're all that distrustful of government, why don't we all do something about it besides voting in politicians, I don't get it. It's like, "well i'm being farked in the ass but.... *shrug*"

We've all done it through the GWB years and now its gotten worse, and thats why corrupt politicians will continue to get away with it.

But what will we do Smooky? Will be your response. I don't know, I see my tax dollars at work. So I do see enough in action where i'm not super bitter and complacent so I just sit on my hands while being done unlubed like a lot of you seem to enjoy. I don't live in the backwoods, and while i'm not too keen on government (no one is), I certainly don't feel the rape-vibe you guys have going on. You're all Politically Depressed.

DR. ZOMBIE RON PAUL.

Dr. Ron Paul will only ask for taxes for two things, to encase his body in solid gold and build an Ayn Rand Memorial Center.

Go Go Chinchilla!: I'm tired of this shiat. Let's just go to full-on Soviet-style Communism and be done with it.

Because the USSR was never, ever, a communist nation. Your premise is faulty.

But what will we do, Smooky?

Oh for crying out loud. It's a metaphor. Unwad your panties.

We already know what her planks are.

albo: But what will we do, Smooky?

Fight a revolution and install me as dictator. No more government, just a tiny, scrawny internet nerd yelling for people to build statues of himself at every street corner.

But, you'll save like 80% of what you're paying in taxes right now.

Smookyfufu: No more government, just a tiny, scrawny internet nerd yelling for people to build statues of himself at every street corner

and hot women for all, i hope
all hail First Citizen Smooky!

mryoop789: Universal health care? Yeah, right. Like they'll divert funds from anything of their own pet programs to help us out. We can't afford it, I think.

IF we didn't waste several trillion in a desert, I bet we could.

Smookyfufu: I want a Ron Paul utopia

Smookyfufu: DR. ZOMBIE RON PAUL.

Smookyfufu: Dr. Ron Paul will only ask for taxes for two things

This obsession with Ron Paul, both pro and con, is turning into some sort of bizarre political fetishism.

What is it with this guy that insprires such fixation?

SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND

sigdiamond2000: What is it with this guy that insprires such fixation?

the love of the message of freedom.

or the hate of the message of freedom.

your choice.

/sarcasm off

vernonFL: You can walk into any emergency room right now and you will be seen and treated, regardless of your ablility to pay. The government picks up the tab.

Oh no they don't. The individual does. The hospital makes damn sure they get your SSN and three kinds of ID if you don't have insurance, and they come after you with five different collection agencies if you don't pay. They take you to court, they take your house, your car, they don't discriminate. Then if there's any balance left on your 'tab'--as you call it--they write it off as a loss after a few years. In no way does 'the gubmint' write them a check for your medical bills.

KaponoFor3: SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND

Also known as:

GIMME GIMME GIMME

sigdiamond2000: What is it with this guy that insprires such fixation?

The blimp?

Mordant: I doubt many "huge" government programs are funded by your taxes, submitter. Unless they have a program to give a handful of crumbs to the birds once or twice a year.

I actually laughed out loud.

Thanks for that.

MasterThief: God is a Republican, Santa Claus is a Democrat.

FTFL:
God is a Republican and Santa Claus is a Democrat.

God is an elderly or, at any rate, middle-aged male, a stern fellow, patriarchal rather than paternal and a great believer in rules and regulations. He holds men strictly accountable for their actions. He has little apparent concern for the material well-being of the disadvantaged. He is politically connected, socially powerful and holds the mortgage on literally everything in the world. God is difficult. God is unsentimental. It is very hard to get into God's heavenly country club.

Santa Claus is another matter. He's cute. He's nonthreatening. He's always cheerful. And he loves animals. He may know who's been naughty and who's been nice, but he never does anything about it. He gives everyone everything they want without thought of a quid pro quo. He works hard for charities, and he's famously generous to the poor. Santa Claus is preferable to God in every way but one: There is no such thing as Santa Claus.

Funny you should mention this, because as far as I (and many, many others) are concerned, there is no such thing as God either.

/not Republican, OR Democrat

SuperCrackMonkey: Oh no they don't. The individual does.

Um, no, not really. The person who already has medical insurance does. When a patient is unable to pay a bill, it is paid for by raising the price for patients that can pay, and passing that cost to their insurers. In some states, there is also a pool into which the state and the insurance companies put money to make up for hospital losses. So, in effect, since I pay taxes and am insured, I pay when someone is unable to do so.

Universal health insurance just takes that cost and moves it around a little. If it happens, that extra cost will all be in taxes, although I don't expect my health insurance premiums to fall as a result, since an extra layer of insurance and government bureaucracy will undoubtedly suck up any savings that preventative care for the formerly uninsured might have provided.

So she expects me to give her money to buy me gifts I don't want?

Smookyfufu, you're so short sighted. Don't you see that a "return" to Constitutional values will liberate us. Soon, the power will be returned to the 50 states, which are models of organization, thrift and efficiency.

BobtheFascist: So she expects me to give her money to buy me gifts I don't want?

Interesting concept: government is a teenager ;-)

sigdiamond2000: What is it with this guy that insprires such fixation?

Ready?

To understand the Ron Paul phenomena you have to first understand libertarianism. Then, you can move on to understanding internet culture. And finally to the candidate himself.

Libertarianism and it's adherents are utopianists. They believe that the power of the idea is strong enough to overcome reality. Much like communists, they think that if only every human being acted according to their perfect vision of humanity then all of humanity will be saved from themselves. Unlike communists, they believe that this power lies within the individual and not the culture or the group. The deep, deep irony is that it is only the power of the group, the power of the libertarian culture that propels them along their utopian path. Most other rational beings can see this aporia but the libertarian utopianists will fight back with tautological arguments. Much like other frustrating people on the internet -- no matter how often you show them the hole in their theory -- they keep saying the same thing over and over. Another feature of libertarianism (and yet another aporia) is that libertarians almost always demonstrate a slavish devotion to an authoritative leader. I actually think they know that libertarianism is a bankrupt ideas but suffer from a sort of political cognitive dissonance which causes them to rail even harder against their perceived opponents. To sum up, Libertarianism is a philosophical tradition divorced from reality who's leader will guide them toward an untenable utopian future which at its very root is flawed and everyone knows this except, it seems, the libertarians.

Internet culture you probably already get. But there's a phenomena that you may no be aware of. It's called incestuous amplification and basically it just means that in the small group dynamic a set of rules will be created and that within those rules the group will begin to form tautological arguments, demonize disagreement, and form bright line definitions of who they are as opposed to "the other." In this case, "the other" is anyone who disagrees with Ron Paul or Libertarianism. Thus, because of it's ability to self segregate, the internet is able to create far more rigid communities of belief who are far more vocal. Essentially, the cult dynamic is amplified on the internet. People stop thinking and start believing. In the 80s we called these people "Republicans" nowadays they like to call themselves "libertarians" even though they all vote for "Republicans."

Finally, the candidate. Frankly, he is charismatic, honest, authoritative, simple, and most importantly absolute. Because Utopians love absolutisms and simplicity. Thus, Ron Paul is seen as the One True Leader who believes in Freedom, the One True Leader who believes in privacy, the One True Leader who will guide the country back to its Utopian Individual past and bring the U.S. from it's long national darkness.

It's been a long time since Libertarians have had a charismatic leader who they could support. And so they are in full throat. They are even willing to overlook Ron Paul's abhorrent and anti-freedom and anti-libertarian stances on some issues and, in fact, will argue FOR him on those issues. Because everyone else in their Google Group talks about how stupid we all are and that if we only REALLY LISTENED we'd get it; that all they want is to have Ron Paul lead us to individualism's paradise lost.

That's my take on them.

infantry: RodneyToady

If contraception is added to universal health care, it may wind up cheaper overall in the long run.

i don't want to subsidize someone else's sex life

you'll get over it.

timmy_the_tooth: That's my take on them.

And it's very well constructed, insightful, and explains the pro-Ron Paul phenomenon pretty well, I think.

Now what about the psychopathology of the obsessively anti-Ron Paul folks who seem to be just as fixated and invested in bringing him down as the others are in propping him up?

I've always found it interesting that some of the most vehement Ron Paul detractors are folks who, before he decided to run for president on the Republican ticket, vocally supported the man and his policy positions. Why did their opinion of him, and the opinions of so many other conservatives, immediately change overnight when he decided to run for president?

To me, that's the most interesting aspect of this whole Ron Paul business. It's fairly easy to psychoanalyze the legions of somewhat naive utopianist libertarians who are in desperate need of some sort of father figure. What I don't get is why so many ostensibly intelligent conservatives all of a sudden decided that Ron Paul was the most dangerous thing to happen to the Republican Party in years when, in just the recent past, those same people held him up as the standard bearer of conservative principles.

sigdiamond2000: What I don't get is why so many ostensibly intelligent conservatives all of a sudden decided that Ron Paul was the most dangerous thing to happen to the Republican Party in years when, in just the recent past, those same people held him up as the standard bearer of conservative principles.

I think it's his clear disgust with the Iraq war. Many "conservatives" within the GOP have defended the war for many, many years and refuse to support someone who basically has said its a farking bad idea from the very beginning.

infantry: i don't want to subsidize someone else's sex life

Neither do I. Yet our tax dollars go to subsidize other people's children, which are direct results of their sex lives.

The people who need free contraception most (the young and the poor) are the ones whose accidental pregnancies will result in the most cost for the system in the long run. You may have some moral or religious objection... mine's primarily economic.

albo: a government health care plan will be set up written entirely by insurance and pharmaceutical company lobbyists and then given cosmetic tweaks by politicians. who will be influenced by anti-abortion advocates who will never allow that to happen.

Embiggened that for you.

I pay pretty much in taxes for other people's health care as I do for national defense, and there are 40-50 million Americans without insurance and many more who are a pink slip away from it. I have my own insurance through work, so I have no vested interest in saying this, but I am all for single-payer health care. I never really paid much attention to it until several doctors started talking to me about it.

KaponoFor3: I think it's his clear disgust with the Iraq war.

I think that probably explains a good portion of it, but it seems like there's something else at play as well. It can't just be the anti-war thing.

sigdiamond2000: the obsessively anti-Ron Paul folks

Which ones are those? The ones who've exhausted their willingness to attempt reasonable discourse with the Ron Paul faithful, and now amuse themselves with baiting and mockery?

Or the party operatives whose function is to destroy their candidates' political opponents, whoever they are, by any means they have?

Other than that, I don't think I've seen another kind of "anti-Ron Paul folks" certainly none I'd describe as obsessive or psychopathic. Though I may be missing something.

Go Go Chinchilla!: I'm tired of this shiat. Let's just go to full-on Soviet-style Communism and be done with it.

Wild hyperbole that doesn't even approximate reality is a good way to start.

timmy_the_tooth: That's my take on them.

You deserve a "THIS!" today. And I say this as a libertarian sympathizer. It's a very powerful and very internally consistent ideology, but it has some very deep flaws that cause it to utterly fail when applied without thinking.

Smookyfufu: OH NO NOT HEALTHCARE, ALTERNATIVE ENERGY, BRINGING THE TROOPS HOME AND EDUCATION OH GOD! I want a Ron Paul utopia where we all have shotguns and leather vests with spikes on them to protect our gold cache and build our own roads with our bare hands.


(And I hate Hillary.)

here's a big sack of snarky THIS. FTW

I just want Tinker Toys

TiltedKilt: You mean like all the "gifts" we're currently giving to the military-industrial complex? At least if we gave them to ourselves I'd be getting something back on the dollar.

That's American politics for ya. Go ahead and ream my arse with that sandpaper dildo, at least the sandpaper isn't coarse grit.

bring the troops home, etc. All of the gifts are funded in one way or another with your money.

Uh, not bringing the troops home is funded with my money, and costs a hell of a lot more than bringing them home.

/Hillary Clinton wants to use your money to pay me to stop cockpunching you, Subby. Let's send a message to these Commies and turn your nuts into pulp.