once upon a time breaking into a hotel office to get a leg up on the opposition brought down a president once it was uncovered. Now nothing.
First this, then the Hart Senate office building, and finally the Patriot act FTW.

AMS0000: once upon a time breaking into a hotel office to get a leg up on the opposition brought down a president once it was uncovered. Now nothing.
First this, then the Hart Senate office building, and finally the Patriot act FTW.

Back then, people paid attention to their elected officals. They demanded integrity from those in power and they held them accountable for their actions.

Nowdays, all we care about is if someone has the right letter after their name.

big surprise, be sure to thank a "conservative" for defending their hero.

Mordant: big surprise, be sure to thank a "conservative" for defending their hero.

This has been going on for a long, long time.

But hey, you keep thinking that only 'teh conserbatbibals' are behind this. Just try not to drool on your shirt too much.

Well, that engineer was just thinking in a pre-9/11 mindset...

Weaver95: This has been going on for a long, long time.

But hey, you keep thinking that only 'teh conserbatbibals' are behind this. Just try not to drool on your shirt too much.

You just linked to something from 1990...

Unless you're arguing Bush the Elder wasn't conservative?

KyngNothing: Unless you're arguing Bush the Elder wasn't conservative?


I'm saying that it's a pattern. One that's been around for a VERY long time and has only gotten worse as we've gone along. Not to mention a certain Democratic President by name, but he also gave such activities a free pass.

Illegal government wiretaps and violations of our 4th amendment rights is something that transcends party affiliation. Both parties quietly sanction such activities. The sooner you ALL wake up to that fact, the sooner we could do something about it.

That tech also alleged that these monitoring rooms are in many other large cities. But we knew this was going on all along, didn't we?

Weaver95: Nowdays, all we care about is if someone has the right letter after their name.

Who's we?

Weaver95: I'm saying that it's a pattern. One that's been around for a VERY long time and has only gotten worse as we've gone along. Not to mention a certain Democratic President by name, but he also gave such activities a free pass.

KyngNothing: You just linked to something from 1990...

Unless you're arguing Bush the Elder wasn't conservative?

BushI was never a conservative. I'm not aware of him ever pretending to be. He was always considered an old party Republican. Remember, he invented the term "voodoo economics" to mock Reagan's conservative policies. Reagan brought him into his 1980 ticket to unite the centralists with Reagan's conservative wing.

Either way, Weaver95's overall point is valid.
This is not a liberal/conservative or a Republican/Democrat issue. Anyone who thinks it is one is just fooling themselves.
Both parties grab power and seek to invade privacy.

As the Government start stripping away all the other Amendments, good citizens should be practicing their 2nd Amendment rights more and more.

I will gladly sacrifice any and all safety I have gained through these wiretaps. No amount of wiretapping would have stopped 9/11, nor would any of the patriot act. We are protecting against yesterdays terrorist attacks, and in today's state of mind all terrorists have to do is form a half assed plot and the Western world panics and hides in our bunkers while offering our freedoms to the government in return for a false sense of security. I will be arming myself this summer. Thank god the conservatives love their guns.

A friend of mine used to be able to eavesdrop on cellphone calls with his police scanner. That was some boring shiat.

The only thing the CIA is going to learn is how farking retarded and boring most of the American public is. You couldn't pay me to listen to those phone calls.

Non story.

Born2late: A friend of mine used to be able to eavesdrop on cellphone calls with his police scanner. That was some boring shiat.

The only thing the CIA is going to learn is how farking retarded and boring most of the American public is. You couldn't pay me to listen to those phone calls.

Non story.

yeah, right up till one of those boring conversations is mistaken by the NSA/FBI/CIA as "terrorist planning" and your happy ass is hauled off to a secret location. Held for 5, 6 or more years. You are tortured a bit. Denied access to, well, anyone. Family, lawyer, the FSM. Yeah, nothing to worry about here citizen.

FTFA: In a separate N.S.A. project, executives at a Denver phone carrier, Qwest, refused in early 2001 to give the agency access to their most localized communications switches, which primarily carry domestic calls, according to people aware of the request, which has not been previously reported. They say the arrangement could have permitted neighborhood-by-neighborhood surveillance of phone traffic without a court order, which alarmed them.

There's a key word in there that changes the whole discussion. Shame on all of you for falling for Trollmitter's bait. I should expect better, but if the opportunity to bash Bush comes up, you guys are ready and willing to take it, even if it's for scurrilous reasons.

Born2late: The only thing the CIA is going to learn is how farking retarded and boring most of the American public is. You couldn't pay me to listen to those phone calls.

Non story.

Methinks somebody is missing the point here.

Born2late: A friend of mine used to be able to eavesdrop on cellphone calls with his police scanner. That was some boring shiat.

The only thing the CIA is going to learn is how farking retarded and boring most of the American public is. You couldn't pay me to listen to those phone calls.

Non story.

Please post your phone record and your full internet history in this thread now.

Shaggy_C: There's a key word in there that changes the whole discussion. Shame on all of you for falling for Trollmitter's bait. I should expect better, but if the opportunity to bash Bush comes up, you guys are ready and willing to take it, even if it's for scurrilous reasons.

I, for one, would rather not put the federal government in a position to commit wiretapping crimes at will and with no accountability. I just don't trust them to behave themselves.

And if you were a conservative, you'd feel the same way.

FTA
"within two weeks of taking office, the Bush administration was planning a comprehensive effort of spying on Americans' phone usage."

But 9/11................ wait...WHAT?!!!

Weaver95: I, for one, would rather not put the federal government in a position to commit wiretapping crimes at will and with no accountability. I just don't trust them to behave themselves.

Which is why we have FISA and a robust court system.

I love the fact that libs are all up in arms about the patriot act and see (in their opinion) how badly gov't can screw things up, but want more gov't involvement in their healthcare! and want more gov't regulation in their lives in general. seems to me if 1 republican administration can screw up the country beyond repair (like bush did) why do the libs want all that power potentially in the wrong hands?

Shaggy_C: Which is why we have FISA and a robust court system.

Do you know anything about the whole debate over wiretapping?

FuriousGeorge945: Do you know anything about the whole debate over wiretapping?

Yes, I'm quite well researched on the subject. What's your point?

Satyagraha: FTA
"within two weeks of taking office, the Bush administration was planning a comprehensive effort of spying on Americans' phone usage."

But 9/11................ wait...WHAT?!!!

Yeah, 9/11 came in pretty handy.

subby, I'm just finding fault with your headline here...

"They say the arrangement could have permitted neighborhood-by-neighborhood surveillance". The effort was shut down.

Further, if you go to the NY Times article, you see this was a trend starting back in the Clinton era.

"Officials say the government has not listened to the communications, but has instead used phone numbers and e-mail addresses to analyze links between people in the United States and overseas. Senior Justice Department officials in the Bush and Clinton administrations signed off on the operation, which uses broad administrative subpoenas but does not require court approval to demand the records."

Then, by December 2000, the NSA made a push to stretch it further to "become a "powerful, permanent presence" on the commercial communications network, a goal that they acknowledged would raise legal and privacy issues."

Overall, very interesting NY Times article. But bad headline.

once upon a time breaking into a hotel office to get a leg up on the opposition brought down a president won him re-election 4 months later

FTFY

So... when Bush made that speech saying to the American public that this was JUST international to national calls he was lying? I've gotten to the point were I NEVER expetc him to tell the truth when a lie will do.

Unrelated but interesting nonetheless... last night I was digging up some history on various terrorist organizations (I dunno, i do that on my friday nights), so i'm punching in different keywords in lexusnexus and other archives.. All of sudden my computer starts humming like its going into overdrive. My laptop is pretty smooth and has never done that like some of my older ones would. Anyway, I'm sure I'm flagged somewhere for all the hardcore porn I have.... hold on i got a knock on my door..

I see a bunch of cowards with their fingers firmly planted in their ears, yelling over and over (in every one of these threads) that Bush would never abuse his power, that if he ever tried our checks and balances would correct the problem, and even if there was anything technicly illegal, its ok because its all done for our safety.

I know their fingers are planted deep because they havent taken them out to listen to a thing that's been happening for the past seven years.

rush_limbaugh_sent_me: Liberals don't seem that worried about Bush spying on them. They all engage in their hate Bush rhetoric in forums like this without a moment's hestitation. You talk to a person in a China on the internet, and you won't fine one that will criticize their government. That's not because they all like their government...it's because their Communist nation monitor what they say and do.

When I start seeing liberals suddenly disasppearing, I might start believing Bush is spying on them. Until then, it's just paranaoia or political fearmongering (Bush is spying on you!). Who cares what the NYT has to say about Bush, those guys have been truthful about Bush one time in his presidency. NYT is just a polished DailyKos.

LMAO at the Bush ball-licker accusing someone else of fear mongering.

That's rich!

Shaggy_C: Weaver95: I, for one, would rather not put the federal government in a position to commit wiretapping crimes at will and with no accountability. I just don't trust them to behave themselves.

Which is why we have FISA and a robust court system.

Comedy. Gold.

Your little courts are meaningless so long as the administration continues to make end runs around them.

If you continue to support this administration, you give tacit approval to subversion of the Constitution and are a traitor. Please hang yourself and save us the trouble.

Occam's Chainsaw: Your little courts are meaningless so long as the administration continues to make end runs around them.

If you're going to make the assertion that the administration has broken laws, you're going to need some proof. Otherwise you're just making up lies.

Shaggy, don't believe for a second that I was actually addressing you. I know your game and I'm not playing it. I used your post and the fallacy therein as a jumping off point.

chu2dogg: Unrelated but interesting nonetheless... last night I was digging up some history on various terrorist organizations (I dunno, i do that on my friday nights), so i'm punching in different keywords in lexusnexus and other archives.. All of sudden my computer starts humming like its going into overdrive. My laptop is pretty smooth and has never done that like some of my older ones would.

Na, it was the ghost of John O'Neil.

Occam's Chainsaw: I know your game and I'm not playing it. I used your post and the fallacy therein as a jumping off point.

What is that supposed to mean? That you can't back up your statements, so instead you'll just brush it off as me playing a game? Really, if you want to discuss something, do so. But don't come here making all kinds of noise with baseless attacks.

Shaggy_C - How's that apprenticeship under Afternoon delight coming along? Still have to spend a whole 6 hours a day sucking his cock? Well you keep at it, the more you injest the more like him you become every day.

Big Dave: How's that apprenticeship under Afternoon delight coming along?

Oh, get over it already. I use the 'liberal hate' phrase once and now I'm public enemy #1.

blade1228: So... when Bush made that speech saying to the American public that this was JUST international to national calls he was lying? I've gotten to the point were I NEVER expetc him to tell the truth when a lie will do.

i'd rather not have government in my life, but what exactly am i supposed to be afraid of here?

rush_limbaugh_sent_me: When I start seeing liberals suddenly disasppearing, I might start believing Bush is spying on them. Until then, it's just paranaoia or political fearmongering (Bush is spying on you!).

I'll never understand why so many people seem to think it's the height of intellect to pretend that there's no reason to ever question the motives of this president, and that anyone who does so is a paranoid hippie.

Or why even obvious scandals like a senator foot-tapping for blowjobs in a mensroom are vigorously defended by a 6 week barrage of Tucker Carlson wannabes going "What? WHAT?" in disingenuous unison, as if they can't begin to comprehend what all the fuss is about.

If it makes you feel tough to pretend that only sissies or terrorists worry about Bush wiretapping without oversight, then fine. I just don't get it.

The "loyal" twenty-five percent: more loyal to a man than to their country.



How's it taste?

Son of God: 014789: blade1228: So... when Bush made that speech saying to the American public that this was JUST international to national calls he was lying? I've gotten to the point were I NEVER expetc him to tell the truth when a lie will do.

i'd rather not have government in my life, but what exactly am i supposed to be afraid of here?

What are you supposed to be afraid of? Are you serious? Any sort of government spying on its people has never been the sign of good things, historically.

sure but until theres hard evidence that someone in the administration tapped a phone and ACTED in a negative way to an ordinary civilian with NO ties illegal or threatening activity, this is a non story and i'm not at all worried. i'm not going to lose sleep over "accusations and assertions".

014789: Son of God: 014789: blade1228: So... when Bush made that speech saying to the American public that this was JUST international to national calls he was lying? I've gotten to the point were I NEVER expetc him to tell the truth when a lie will do.

i'd rather not have government in my life, but what exactly am i supposed to be afraid of here?

What are you supposed to be afraid of? Are you serious? Any sort of government spying on its people has never been the sign of good things, historically.

sure but until theres hard evidence that someone in the administration tapped a phone and ACTED in a negative way to an ordinary civilian with NO ties illegal or threatening activity, this is a non story and i'm not at all worried. i'm not going to lose sleep over "accusations and assertions".

Like the Canadian who was abducted by Americans, shipped to Syria, tortured for years, and then released?

Son of God: What are you supposed to be afraid of? Are you serious?

We have nothing to fear, but fear itself.

People should not fear the government; the government should fear the people.

Too many Americans have forgotten the face of their fathers.

WFern: 014789: Son of God: 014789: blade1228: So... when Bush made that speech saying to the American public that this was JUST international to national calls he was lying? I've gotten to the point were I NEVER expetc him to tell the truth when a lie will do.

i'd rather not have government in my life, but what exactly am i supposed to be afraid of here?

What are you supposed to be afraid of? Are you serious? Any sort of government spying on its people has never been the sign of good things, historically.

sure but until theres hard evidence that someone in the administration tapped a phone and ACTED in a negative way to an ordinary civilian with NO ties illegal or threatening activity, this is a non story and i'm not at all worried. i'm not going to lose sleep over "accusations and assertions".

Like the Canadian who was abducted by Americans, shipped to Syria, tortured for years, and then released?

sorry, not familiar.

014789: ...until theres hard evidence that someone in the administration tapped a phone and ACTED in a negative way to an ordinary civilian with NO ties illegal or threatening activity, this is a non story and i'm not at all worried...

Given how we've seen this administration act over the last several years, you're in no way concerned about them using unsupervised domestic wiretaps OR about what they might do with whatever information they uncover/claim to have uncovered? Really?

Barricaded Gunman: 014789: ...until theres hard evidence that someone in the administration tapped a phone and ACTED in a negative way to an ordinary civilian with NO ties illegal or threatening activity, this is a non story and i'm not at all worried...

Given how we've seen this administration act over the last several years, you're in no way concerned about them using unsupervised domestic wiretaps OR about what they might do with whatever information they uncover/claim to have uncovered? Really?

what do you mean how they've acted? towards civilians?

014789: WFern: 014789: Son of God: 014789: blade1228: So... when Bush made that speech saying to the American public that this was JUST international to national calls he was lying? I've gotten to the point were I NEVER expetc him to tell the truth when a lie will do.

i'd rather not have government in my life, but what exactly am i supposed to be afraid of here?

What are you supposed to be afraid of? Are you serious? Any sort of government spying on its people has never been the sign of good things, historically.

sure but until theres hard evidence that someone in the administration tapped a phone and ACTED in a negative way to an ordinary civilian with NO ties illegal or threatening activity, this is a non story and i'm not at all worried. i'm not going to lose sleep over "accusations and assertions".

Like the Canadian who was abducted by Americans, shipped to Syria, tortured for years, and then released?

sorry, not familiar.

You have got to be kidding.

Do you deliberately avoid the news at large?

Son of God: 014789: sorry, not familiar.

Oh ok, it didn't happen then.


i'm not saying it didnt happen, just not familiar with the circumstances, thats all.

014789: what do you mean how they've acted?

Okay, the Frog is gonna play Prince Charming. Wake up, Snow White.

While you were under evil stepmother's spell, a whole lot of legislation has been rammed through congress, much of it as riders on innocuous bills. Habeus Corpus vanished in your sleep, and it took the Posse Comitatus Act with it. And don't blame it on the damn dwarves.

Son of God: You misunderstood me. I was asking it in sheer amazement that someone (014789) would say that.

I understood you. I was backing you up.

They've cherrypicked intelligence to push their agenda. They've viciously targeted people who oppose them with the vilest of incriminations, which have eventually turned out to be outright lies after it's too late to matter. They've staged phony townhall meetings with planted questions, faked and distributed "news" reports to further their agenda, paid unscrupulous "jounalists" to write favorably about their initiatives, planted a gay prostitute in the White House press corp to break up tough questioning with non-sequiturs and softballs, the list goes on and on.

In short, this administration has shown a callous disregard, even contempt, for what the rest of us have come to know as the truth. Giving people like this the right to peek into everyone's stuff without oversight makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, unless you're a partisan idiot who just can't admit he's been duped.