Hey! That looks like fun, but why are we doing this to terrorists?

I can't even believe this is part of our national conversation, let alone the fact that it won't pass the Senate.

Darn. I thought it was cool living in a torture state.

But we're still the only country to nuke a city. So we're still pretty badass, right?

Guy Innagorillasuit: I can't even believe this is part of our national conversation, let alone the fact that it won't pass the Senate.

So very true. It truly is sad when this nation, the supposed "beacon of freedom", to the rest of the world even needs to pass a bill that bans waterboarding/torture. It should be farking modus operandi for the past, present and future of this nation. It shouldn't even be a question that waterboarding is torture either. Simulating drowning is torture because I don't know about other people but when someone pulls me underwater in a pool its pretty farking scary.

Under the Bush admin it wants to be able to be able to do:
The administration particularly opposes restricting the CIA to interrogation methods approved by the military in 2006. That document prohibits forcing detainees to be naked, perform sexual acts, or pose in a sexual manner; placing hoods or sacks over detainees' heads or duct tape over their eyes; beating, shocking, or burning detainees; threatening them with military dogs; exposing them to extreme heat or cold; conducting mock executions; depriving them of food, water, or medical care; and waterboarding.


In Saddam's regime:
Some victims - both male and female - were sexually abused. Others had objects, including broken bottles, inserted into their bodies.

In addition to physical torture, detainees have been threatened with rape and subjected to mock execution. "They have been placed in cells where they could hear the screams of others being tortured and have been deprived of sleep," said the Amnesty report.

Some were kept in solitary confinement for long periods.

...Methods of torture included being left suspended and electric shocks being applied on their bodies, including their genitals. Source (new window)

But when we do it, it's not torture.

House passes bill to ban CIA waterboarding

But it will still be be allowed by the FBI, NSA, DHS, NSC, DOE, NRO, IRS, FAA ...

Postal Penguin: But when we do it, it's not torture.

*Cue dramatic country music*

HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN HOW IT FELT THAT DAY
TO SEE YOUR HOMELAND UNDER FIRE?

*inject pictures of firefighters raising the flag in the ruble*

HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN WHEN THOSE TOWERS FELL??

*show weeping policeman*


Why do you hate America?

/*cue vomit bucket*

Rubble, dammit, not ruble. Still . . .



. . . it would be interesting to see firefighters raise a flag on that.

From Human Rights Watch

International and U.S. law prohibits torture and other ill-treatment of any person in custody in all circumstances. The prohibition applies to the United States during times of peace, armed conflict, or a state of emergency. Any person, whether a U.S. national or a non-citizen, is protected. It is irrelevant whether the detainee is determined to be a prisoner-of-war, a protected person, or a so-called "security detainee" or "unlawful combatant." And the prohibition is in effect within the territory of the United States or any place anywhere U.S. authorities have control over a person. In short, the prohibition against torture and ill-treatment is absolute.

Now let's begin Operation Count the Number of Wingnuts who Support Torture commencing at 0419hrs. You can't serve in this one TCS.

The 110th Congress needs to just skip impeachment and pass a resolution recommending prosecution by the ICC. This War President has admitted to at least two high crimes in a public setting. Warrantless wiretapping and torturing "unlawful combatants" including "unlawful innocent people in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong skin color" and "unlawful innocent children." Imagine your son/daughter getting raped in front of you in an effort to get you to talk. You'd confess to planning 911 or whatever else your captors wanted you to say.

Thank the majority of Republicans, a lesser amount of Democrats, a pliant media and complacent populace for actively letting the terrorists win.

Do they believe for one farking minute we actually think they won't still do it? I know I think they still will if it works.

This just gives them the leverage to say "no we didn't it's against the law" if someone comes forward and says we did it to them.

ok but you may as well know that mkultra is now run by the media...

I'll never understand why Americans always think they invented freedom.

America.

The country founded upon SLAVERY.


A beacon of freedom???!? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Here come da' left.
Here come da' left.
Order in the court.
Here come da' left.

If just one American life is saved by waterboarding a thousand suspects then I'm all for it.

/obvious

Nice trolling, radioman_

Funny how only a couple years ago Pelosi completely supported waterboarding and even suggested it didn't go far enough.

TheFallGuy: I'll never understand why Americans always think they invented freedom.

America.

The country founded upon SLAVERY.

freedom is slavery

radioman_: If just one American life is saved by waterboarding a thousand suspects then I'm all for it.

And your friends at foxnews and the government agree with you!!!

/the thousend "suspects"? not so much.
//make sure you dont become a "suspects" by some dumb mistake!!

Desterion: Funny how only a couple years ago Pelosi completely supported waterboarding and even suggested it didn't go far enough.

She's a stupid spineless coont, like most politicians. What's your point?

Wow.

I think it's official: America has permanently lost the moral high ground.

Sure, you probably started losing it many years ago, but this makes sure it stays dead.

InternetLOL: She's a stupid spineless coont, like most ALL politicians. What's your point?

FTFY

/Hates Republicans and Democrats equally.

Shedim: Wow.

I think it's official: America has permanently lost the moral high ground.

Sure, you probably started losing it many years ago, but this makes sure it stays dead.

I think it's mostly gone too, but I'm not sure the House passing a bill banning torture by the CIA is what did it.

Yall_Aint_My_Kin: No, it didn't. I think it was just the final sign that yes, it's all gone swirling down the drain now. Nail in the coffin, etc.

/tired, probably over-dramatising

radioman_:

If just one American life is saved by waterboarding a thousand suspects then I'm all for it.

You sound suspicious...

Desterion: Funny how only a couple years ago Pelosi completely supported waterboarding and even suggested it didn't go far enough.

I don't really mind flip-flopping if the final result is the right one. Unfortunately, with Pelosi, that isn't always the case.

Just wait until Bush vetoes it because "it doesn't go far enough", or "the democrat (sic) congress wants us to lose the war on terror", or "we cannot let the terrorists know what techniques we use and don't use", or "it is unnecessary, because we already don't torture", or some similar shiat. Wait and see, I bet this doesn't become law.

The loophole to this law is outsourcing, just like the covert prisons. The CIA has been using highly sophisticated interrogation techniques since it's creation.

The less you know, and the CIA plans to keep it this way.

radioman_: If just one American life is saved by waterboarding a thousand suspects then I'm all for it.

Great, you go first. Thanks for volunteering.

Postal Penguin: Guy Innagorillasuit: I can't even believe this is part of our national conversation, let alone the fact that it won't pass the Senate.

So very true. It truly is sad when this nation, the supposed "beacon of freedom", to the rest of the world even needs to pass a bill that bans waterboarding/torture. It should be farking modus operandi for the past, present and future of this nation. It shouldn't even be a question that waterboarding is torture either. Simulating drowning is torture because I don't know about other people but when someone pulls me underwater in a pool its pretty farking scary.

To be fair, when we have a discussion on what tortures to ban, the worst we can come up with is dunking people in water, but not actually putting their life in any kind of real danger. While I don't have the expertise to talk about psychological damage on a technical level, I've gotta say that compared to what the rest of the world and every civilization has done, that's an indicator that we're pretty abnormally humane.

People can still function perfectly normally after the absolute worst our agencies throw at them. Yeah, we're totally evil. Totally.

//Just injecting some perspective. Obviously we can always become nicer, so, whatever, flame away.

Jim_Callahan: Postal Penguin: Guy Innagorillasuit: I can't even believe this is part of our national conversation, let alone the fact that it won't pass the Senate.

So very true. It truly is sad when this nation, the supposed "beacon of freedom", to the rest of the world even needs to pass a bill that bans waterboarding/torture. It should be farking modus operandi for the past, present and future of this nation. It shouldn't even be a question that waterboarding is torture either. Simulating drowning is torture because I don't know about other people but when someone pulls me underwater in a pool its pretty farking scary.

To be fair, when we have a discussion on what tortures to ban, the worst we can come up with is dunking people in water, but not actually putting their life in any kind of real danger. While I don't have the expertise to talk about psychological damage on a technical level, I've gotta say that compared to what the rest of the world and every civilization has done, that's an indicator that we're pretty abnormally humane.

People can still function perfectly normally after the absolute worst our agencies throw at them. Yeah, we're totally evil. Totally.

//Just injecting some perspective. Obviously we can always become nicer, so, whatever, flame away.

So as long as someone else out there is doing worse things, it's carte blanche to do everything up to that point. Right?

Remember when the Bill of Rights was a stated enumeration of God-granted rights innate to all human beings, and not just an inconvenience to be side-stepped in the pursuit of whatever greater good you make up on the spot?

/We need to start using torture in the War on Illiteracy.
//Hook Dubya's testicles up to a car battery, see if he gets learnins'.

NO, they actually do follow their own laws. Which means they will have to drive you to Mexico to torture you just like before 2001.

my source is a newspaper article about the guy who found the iran-contra drugs-for-arms scandal paper trail.

Javacrucian: Why do you hate America?

Not even 30 posts when I clicked in here, and somehow I knew a neofasc, err, I mean neoconservative, would have said this.

Rreal: Javacrucian: Why do you hate America?

Not even 30 posts when I clicked in here, and somehow I knew a neofasc, err, I mean neoconservative, would have said this.

Sarcasm sensor's busted, eh?

radioman_: If just one American life is saved by waterboarding a thousand suspects then I'm all for it.

Just so that I'm sure I'm not misunderstanding, you're saying that torturing 1000 people is worth saving one person's life. Assuming it's even possible for torturing someone to result in saving someone's life.

There are some very angry people here.

being angry about our country administering torture is worth it. I think American's lack of anger at some moral depravities is what will eventually result in our worst crimes. As constituents, we are part of the checks and balances system, either by voting the problem-solvers into office.

When the consent of the governed is no longer given for those who govern, thus making the government destructive to those ends, it is the right of us to remove or change our government, even by force if necessary.

anonymous: NO, they actually do follow their own laws. Which means they will have to drive you to Mexico to torture you just like before 2001.

There's NO WAY our government would've tortured people before the dirty, dirty terrorists crashed planes into our buildings. They gave us a reason to wage a war with the browns, and spread democracy throughout the world!

Why is it that nobody mentions the fact that 199 out of 435 supposed "Representatives" actually voted against this. Including 10 Democrats.

All 199 should be waterboarded on principle. "How do you feel about it now, Asshat?"

TheFallGuy: The country founded upon SLAVERY.

So, if there wasn't slavery, there wouldn't be America? Ridiculous.

I read that it only took 35 seconds to get Khalid Mohamad (however you spell it) to start talking.

It works. You may not have the stomach for it, but it does work. Let the CIA do it's job.

TheFallGuy: A beacon of freedom???!? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh yeah, I agree with you here though!

RamblinReck89

There are some very angry people here.

If you aren't angry about this stuff, then basically you are evil, and just trying to rationalise to yourself that you aren't.

s/v HumTum: I read that it only took 35 seconds to get Khalid Mohamad (however you spell it) to start talking.

It works. You may not have the stomach for it, but it does work. Let the CIA do it's job.

Did the A_D bot get a new handle?

Whatsleft: radioman_: If just one American life is saved by waterboarding a thousand suspects then I'm all for it.

Just so that I'm sure I'm not misunderstanding, you're saying that torturing 1000 people is worth saving one person's life.,.

Close. What he is saying is that torturing 1000 suspected terrorists is worth saving one American's life. If we tortured 1,000 Americans in order to save one suspected terrorist's life, he'd be against it.

American lives > Muslim foreigner lives


TheFallGuy: I'll never understand why Americans always think they invented freedom. The country founded upon SLAVERY.

Yes, but the American Constitution was the most radical government document at the time, as far as guaranteeing freedom to citizens. America has also been relatively tolerant throughout history, taking in and eventually integrating all manner of oppressed peoples, and during the Cold War this idea of America as free was heavily reinforced as our main ideological opponent was much more oppressive than we were. That's not to say that America is/has always been the most "free" nation in the world, it just explains why the idea is so pervasive, and constantly striving to embody the idealized state is a rather noble endeavor.

The farking problem is that we've so sold ourselves on the myth of "the land of the free" that we've entered a state of national cognitive dissonance - we can do all sorts of horrible things as a nation, but it's OK, because we're the freest nation in the world, so it can't actually be that bad if we do it. We must be doing it for the right reasons, or the people to whom we're doing it ("terrorists" or, to some people, "Muslims") aren't real people and thus their lives are less valuable than ours (see radioman's post.


Anyway, if this keeps up in the news, it'll make for some fun conversation when I go home and make the Christmas party rounds next week.

Funny how when other countries did the exact same thing, we would consider it a war crime, but when i suits our national interests its ok for us to do.

/maybe not so funny

s/v HumTumI read that it only took 35 seconds to get Khalid Mohamad (however you spell it) to start talking.

It works. You may not have the stomach for it, but it does work. Let the CIA do it's job.

I guess the Coast Guard doesn't do that whole "uphold and defend the Constitution" thing, huh? Bullshiat! I know that they do. I also know that torture basically gets what you want to hear. And that's it.