Canadian music industry representatives are re-opening an old debate about MP3 players that could see the average price of the devices climb by as much as $75



ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - fark off

Wow!

They have lowered their demands then.

Jamin Aura: The future of music is not record labels, thanks to our friend the internet.

Unfortunately, this is killing live music performance on local levels. The American Federation of Musicians gets a small portion of CD sales to fund LIVE music in schools, outdoor or other free performances to the public. Musicians that are not big name stars are really being hurt by the fact that the AFM doesn't have have an agreement with the people that provide the downloads of popular music.

I am a member of the AFM, and I deal with trying to get gigs, and it is devastating to local pro's that make a living as musicians. I don't think the average Joe SixPack knows just how much time is invested by professional musicians perfecting our craft to provide good music on a local level. In the old days, when Joe Sixpack bought a copy of the newest Frank Zappa record, a small portion of the purchase price went to the Musicians Performance Trust Fund. Believe it or not, most of the musicians you listen to are members of the AFM. Not having the funds for the Musicians Performance Trust is affecting all genres of music, not just classical or jazz. If a guy is a member of the AFM, he has the ability to get re-imbursed from the National Union on these kind of gigs. So, the internet may be your friend, but in this regard, it sure as hell is not mine. When I was in college, one of my music profs said a very profound statement. "Music IS performance". Live music is so much better than the canned performances one gets from the internet.

Why don't they just get the government to give them $250 per taxpayer per year to account for pirates listening to music on the radio and public venues?

capecodcarl: Why don't they just get the government to give them $250 per taxpayer per year to account for pirates listening to music on the radio and public venues

Have you ever heard of ASCAP or BMI? ASCAP stands for The American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers. Every time music is published and performed, a royalty is paid to ASCAP or BMI for that performance.

I have to deal with ASCAP sending the local city I book concerts for (I am a member of my City's Cultural Commission) a fee , to make sure they get their piece of the musical pie. Otherwise, why would a composer compose music, if someone can perform it and not pay any royalty on their intellectual property. If you write a dynamite computer program, you'd want to get paid for it, the same applies for musicians lyric writers and composers.

NYC 50's fan: I have to deal with ASCAP sending the local city I book concerts for (I am a member of my City's Cultural Commission) a fee , to make sure they get their piece of the musical pie. Otherwise, why would a composer compose music, if someone can perform it and not pay any royalty on their intellectual property. If you write a dynamite computer program, you'd want to get paid for it, the same applies for musicians lyric writers and composers.

But using your analogy what if the ASCAP charged everyone a fee for booking a hall wherever live music MIGHT be played?

This levy would charge people when they buy the mp3 player AND when they buy the music?
Granted many may not buy the music but don't charge everyone for that - if I use my mp3 player for podcasts only why should I have to pay anything to a recording industry?

chippy chippy suck nuts

On one hand, as musician, I agree with NYC. local musicians are being hurt, and ultimately so is society. If the only music available is the stuff that the corporations who can afford to put it out- things will suck "mach schnell"

On the other hand, maybe there should be a tax on things like mp3 players, and CDs- on mp3s downloaded and electronic mediums just to ensure that musicians get paid for their work.

/DR All TFA.

By the way, NYC's 50's fan can I send you a demo and some stuff for your files? Email in profile.

Stompn_Tom: But using your analogy what if the ASCAP charged everyone a fee for booking a hall wherever live music MIGHT be played?

When I was librarian for a community orchestra, one of my duties was to send to ASCAP a copy of the Orchestra's programs, so ASCAP could decide whether the music was in the public domain or if was under copyright protection. If the piece, say for instance, Aaron Copland's Billy the Kid, we would have to pay a royalty to Copland's estate through ASCAP to legally perform his music. It protects the composer for his intectually property. Some composer estates get their piece of the pie by only renting copies of their compostions. So when you pay to rent a hall and have live music, somewhere in the cost of the rental that is factored in the rental price. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's the way it works.

Conceivably, a hall owner or bar owner, would have to pay copyright royalties to ASCAP, if ASCAP discovers that there is copyrighted live music being performed.

If your using Podcasts for music, you should have to pay. Every time I buy a CD, (and I don't download music from the net) I am glad to pay what little bit goes to the AFM. We're talking a small percentage of the cost of the CD, not major bucks here...

If I teach a private lesson to one of my horn students, I charge a fee, I'm not doing it just for the love of music. I have bills to pay. Don't you like to get paid for your labor, or do you trudge into work every day because you "like" your job? It's intellectual property. That is the catagory music falls into, and it's hard to recaputure what is due an artist. I know I sound zealous about this, but this needs to be addressed, or the only live music will be priced out of the market. I don't like the fact that an artist such as Billy Joel can get away with charging $90 bucks for a ducket to a 20,000 seat basketball arena for a concert. I would never pay that kind of money to see a concert in such a lousy venue for a live performance. But he'll sell out the Palace when he comes to Detroit. Why? Because he can get over on Joe SixPack who is not as picky as I would be...

The double charge is not right, I wanted to expose TFer's to what is going on in the music industry. I heard that the music industry is the fourth largest in the US...

NYC 50's fan: I am a member of the AFM, and I deal with trying to get gigs, and it is devastating to local pro's that make a living as musicians. I don't think the average Joe SixPack knows just how much time is invested by professional musicians perfecting our craft to provide good music on a local level. In the old days, when Joe Sixpack bought a copy of the newest Frank Zappa record, a small portion of the purchase price went to the Musicians Performance Trust Fund. Believe it or not, most of the musicians you listen to are members of the AFM. Not having the funds for the Musicians Performance Trust is affecting all genres of music, not just classical or jazz. If a guy is a member of the AFM, he has the ability to get re-imbursed from the National Union on these kind of gigs. So, the internet may be your friend, but in this regard, it sure as hell is not mine. When I was in college, one of my music profs said a very profound statement. "Music IS performance". Live music is so much better than the canned performances one gets from the internet.



The online music system is killing the members of the RIAA.

You know? The guys who pay radio stations to keep local, good bands out of the rotations. The guys who have created a monopoly and used that position to bleed artists dry, giving them pennies on the dollar for their sales.

All musicians will be better off once the RIAA and its member labels lose their stranglehold on the music system.

SchlingFo: The guys who pay radio stations to keep local, good bands out of the rotations.

this is the most farked up part. My roommate used to work for Tri-Cities Classic Rock in Tennessee. He played a local Vegas band, theIllFigures, on the air one night and got ripped apart for it...even though he didn't mention who they were he still got raked over the coals for playing unauthorized music. Here in Vegas the local scene gets a 2 hour slot on Sunday nights one ONE radio station...and they always play the shiatty Emo crap.

ExcessNeckSkin: If they spent the same money on R&D/Marketing

fark the RIAA's "R&D" and marketing...that's what gave us K-Fed.

NYC 50's fan: "So when you pay to rent a hall and have live music, somewhere in the cost of the rental that is factored in the rental price. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's the way it works."

And if I rent a hall in order to do a seminar on the new tax laws, should I have to pay ASCAP?

2007-02-10 10:53:34 AM Darkkeyboard
On the other hand, maybe there should be a tax on things like mp3 players, and CDs- on mp3s downloaded and electronic mediums just to ensure that musicians get paid for their work.


Do you really think that if the RIAA gets a cut of each Mp3 player, that the artists will see anything more than table scraps?

Hal B. Sure:
And if I rent a hall in order to do a seminar on the new tax laws, should I have to pay ASCAP?

I'm waiting to hear the answer to this. I own an MP3 player that currently has 0 songs or any media of any kind on it but is full.

Turns out them dang ol' things can be used for anyding from dem 'puters! Who knew?

mars22: your local bands always suck. anyone trying to "make it" as a band sucks.

even Metallica started in the local scene. as well as whatever shiatty mainstream bands you listen to.

anyone want a free copy of my album?

no, because you're just some "local" schmuck who hasn't "made it" in the music biz.

farking moran.

Here's a better analogy.

Joe Writer spends three years getting his novel written. It takes him 6 months to land an agent, plus another six months getting a publisher. The book comes out nine monhs later.

Joe gets an advance, plus royalties for every copy sold over the advance. He does Ok. However, every time someone checks Joe's book out of the library, lends it to a friend, or sells it at a yard sale, he gets nothing.

None of the advance or royalties goes into a fund to be paid out to writers. When you have a writer talk at the library, none of his pay goes into a fund, either. The publishing industry doesn't subsidise 'local writers' or anyone who isn't actively writing for them.

Yet somehow writers continue to write.

Why can't the music industry do the same? Why should someone get paid every time a song gets air play?

mars22: your local bands always suck. anyone trying to "make it" as a band sucks.

Actually, no.

art is NOT to be used to make money

That's pretty funny, right there.

US Music Industry:

READ CAREFULLY. By [reading this] you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies ("BOGUS AGREEMENTS") that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.

NYC 50's fan: Conceivably, a hall owner or bar owner, would have to pay copyright royalties to ASCAP, if ASCAP discovers that there is copyrighted live music being performed.

But if a bar has no music playing should they have to pay ASCAP?

This levy is charging because it MIGHT have some illegal files on it, not that it DOES - quite the difference. What is next giving a guy who buys a corvette $2000 in speeding tickets because he now has the ability to speed in that car?

If your using Podcasts for music, you should have to pay.

I don't fully buy that - if I am doing a podcast that is music reviews I am essentially advertising that artists material - and since the recording industry has no idea how to license podcasts they are simply missing out (and usually the podcast audio quality is FM quality or less - not worth paying for)
Also their is lots of 'podsafe' music out there....and my last downloads I have bought have been from hearing the artist on a podcast or youtube

Stompn_Tom: This levy is charging because it MIGHT have some illegal files on it, not that it DOES

Agreed. It assumes the consumer is guilty of something, or is at least liable for damages that may have been incurred. Sony did the same thing with their damned rootkit, and look where that got them.

FTFA:
When you go and buy an iPod, the retailer gets paid. So you can't say that the people who make the music should get a free ride.


Retailers get paid because they aren't selling iPods for the fun of it. They have costs associated with actual product sales. That's why they get paid.

Exactly what part of the iPod did the musicians design? Nothing? Then explain to me exactly why do they deserve a fee for the iPod itself? If there are royalty issues, apply it to the cost of the music. That's fair. But the iPod, or any MP3 player, shouldn't have royalty fees associated with them.

You could easily buy the iPod and only use the games or extras, or use it as an external hard drive. They need to stop trying to squeeze pennies from everything.

mars22: I dont listen to mainstream music.

That wasn't the point. EVERY well known artist started small. all of them. The purpose of art is to be seen/heard/felt. getting rich and farking groupies is just a bonus and is a direct farking result of getting your art known.

the goal of every musician today is to become mainstream because that means they will live forever, metaphorically speaking. Artists of all types want immortality.

This would really piss me off, because of the 55 gigs of music on my harddisk, only maybe 5% comes from artists who ever put work on RIAA contractualized labels. Most of those albums are bootlegs, live or otherwise.

It's kinda like how I have to fork over money to the bastards every time I buy blank tapes. They are actually taxed in the US, with money going to the RIAA. I believe "music" CD-r's also are taxed in the US, but I only buy data ones.

They probably want a piece of my phone, too. Fark off.

I don't buy this 'you're starving the poor artists' bullshiat that's being peddled. The RIAA obviously rips them off by taking the artist's money and giving them a small portion of that. And suddenly I'm supposed to pay out the nose for a CD so the whole organization can keep running strictly because the RIAA simply has a lot of money?

fark them. fark the RIAA right up the ass. They're dying because they were a ripoff to begin with and the internet will sink them. They're simply useless middlemen that sell cheap promises of fame that musicians want and that popular musicians enforce to keep their farking riches coming. So fark that: anybody who believes in keeping such a cheap ripoff going because they fear losing the meager scraps they're getting deserves what they farking get.

Stand up for yourselves, damn it.

If Canada starts a surcharge on MP3 Player, you bet your ass I'll order my next one from another country online.

\SOCAN Member

We already pay this on blank "music" CDs, it is assumed that many of them will be used for piracy. Blank "data" CDs are not subject to this tax, however, as if there's a difference between the two for a blank.

WayToBlue: We already pay this on blank "music" CDs, it is assumed that many of them will be used for piracy. Blank "data" CDs are not subject to this tax, however, as if there's a difference between the two for a blank.

Where?

I keep hearing about this but it seems to be an urban legend - the quoted rate of this levy is more then the price I pay to buy blank CD/DVDs - I don't think it exists

Wow, this is actually a brilliant, albeit dick, idea. Although it really just amounts to government subsidy to an entertainment industry (an absurd idea in and of itself), I could see it working. A little kickback here, a little spin there, and bingo! Of course, they probably wouldn't stop there.

If only we could harness these people for good instead of evil...

If you bought one of these and paid the tax... Isn't that the same as coming up with a settlement?

Seems to me the RIAA would have no future claims against me for anything on that player.