audio interview here if anyone's interested.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7017446


man's a in my book.

Hero? No.

He goes to jail. No questions asked. You signed the dotted line, you punk-ass biatch.

Hero my ass, he's a farking traitor. What, you voluntarily join the military and you refuse to go where you're told? Pussy.

Most definitely a hero. And if he's thrown in the brig, as I expect will happen, I imagine he'll be much more proud of that outcome than of "serving" in this Iraq fiasco.

If he signed a contract to serve his country and then found out that his assignment is actually of no service to his country, and is in fact putting himself and the rest of us in more danger, then I don't think he's the one guilty of breach of contract.

humble, oh I guess that everyone should vote whether or not to obey an order from the CinC? yeah, that would work, why don't we just take a majority decision every time we go to war? Idiot libs.

HumbleGod

He joined after the start of the War in Iraq, and took his oath (not "signed a contract", the U.S. Military is not a corporation) to obey the lawfully given orders of his superiors, of which both Congress and the Commander in Chief directed this conflict. He either joined with reservations that he was obliged to present then and failed to do so, or has allowed his personal politics to interfere with his duty to his superiors in the chain of command. Either way, he needs to be shown the door, preferably with a lengthy stay in a federal pen on the way out.

knbber2: oh I guess that everyone should vote whether or not to obey an order from the CinC?

"It is not a man's duty, as a matter of course, to devote himself to the eradication of any, even the most enormous, wrong...but it is his duty, at, least, to wash his hands of it."

-H.D. Thoreau

Humble, last I check Thoreau never deployed to combat. And it is a soldier's duty to do as he is ordered.

Boojum2k: took his oath ... obey the lawfully given orders of his superiors

Actually, the very first part of that oath is "I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." This comes well before "obeying the orders of his superiors."

I'm not saying he shouldn't be imprisoned. One of the givens of being a conscientious objector is that you have to be willing to accept some form of consequence for your action. And though he doesn't believe himself to be guilty of anything, it appears that he's more willing to accept these consequences than to take part in this waste of lives and dollars.

Thoreau wasn't the best person to be an Army officer, either, HumbleGod

There is a great deal of responsibility taken up by an officer of the U.S. military, and Watada has demonstrated he is unworthy of it.

Boojum2k: There is a great deal of responsibility taken up by an officer of the U.S. military, and Watada has demonstrated he is unworthy of it.

I don't accept your premise that to refuse to participate in an action that is putting America more at risk for attack is a worthy responsibility for a soldier.

unworthy. Mornings aren't my thing.

Humble, boy did you drink the Kool Ade, how does an officer obeying a lawful order put the U.S. more at risk??

HumbleGod

You know, a lot of people quote that part of the Oath without thinking about it. The Constitution of the United States, that he is sworn to support and defend, says clearly that Congress declares and the President commands in wartime. Well, Congress issued its authorization, and the President gave his orders. And Watada wiped his ass with his oath because of his personal politics.

It all comes down to the fact that he is a scared little biatch with no courage hiding behind lib ideologies.

HumbleGod
I don't accept your premise that to refuse to participate in an action that is putting America more at risk for attack is a worthy responsibility for a soldier.

Here's the operative point, bunky. It ain't his call. It's a decision made by Congress, ordered by the President, and carried out by the U.S. Armed Forces.

Wow. The indoctrination is hot and heavy in here.

The charges, which could earn him four years in a military prison

Only four years? I guess they decided to go easy on him.

eh, i'll give him credit for standing up and facing the music.

yah, yah...you sign on the line, libby-libby-lib-u-ral yackity-smack. whatever.

takes more balls to say 'screw you, i aint going' than to just desert. i'll at least give him credit for that.

It all comes down to the fact that he is a scared little biatch with no courage hiding behind lib ideologies.

you couldn't be more wrong if you studied....

This guy read all the evidence, weighed it against what he'd been told by his superiors, and came to the conclusion that going to Iraq would be a violation of his oath. Then he decided to take a stand for his belief, and be court martialed in what he has to know will be a very unfair court, giving up his military benefits as well as ending his career and most likely going to jail in a very unpleasant place for a fairly long time.

Whatever else you might think of him, he is manifestly NOT a coward. Calling him such only indicates just how stupid and ill informed you are about what this officer is doing.

Boojum2k: not "signed a contract",
He signed a contract too. The first page is the number of years. Trust me.......:)

Btw - this sort of case is the pentagon's worst nightmare. I strongly suspect they'll dredge up every nasty personal detail about this guy and run the dirtiest smear campaign then can manage. Then they'll start making shiat up.

The Pentagon NEEDS bodies for this war, and a photogenic, intelligent, well educated officer who stands up to his 'superiors' and points out how bad the President screwed up on Iraq is a PR disaster that really makes their lives difficult. They can't do anything about the press, but they sure as hell can beat the crap out of one of their own.....so look for this guy to get hit with the hardest penality they can arrange. They're going to make an example out of him - obey orders or else.

Weaver95: This guy read all the evidence, weighed it against what he'd been told by his superiors, and came to the conclusion that going to Iraq would be a violation of his oath. Then he decided to take a stand for his belief, and be court martialed in what he has to know will be a very unfair court, giving up his military benefits as well as ending his career and most likely going to jail in a very unpleasant place for a fairly long time.


AMEN. That is the point I'm trying to make.
And as for jail time, if I remember from the interview (which I probably don't), i think each charge has a max 2 year sentence, which is 8 years total. And I doubt quite honestly that he'd get all of that, partially because of the difficulty in proving the charges they levied, and partially because I'm sure they don't want the publicity.

knbber2: And it is a soldier's duty to do as he is ordered.

in his mind, his duty is to defend the Constitution first. He felt his orders violated the Constitution, and felt that he could not live with himself if he took the easy way out and went.

Jamin Aura: That link is breaking my internet, I'm looking for it on NPR.org but still can't find it, got a better link?

sorry, thats the only link I know of. Have you tried just looking up his name (Watada) on there?

knbber2: It all comes down to the fact that he is a scared little biatch with no courage hiding behind lib ideologies

Dude, it's fairly easy to get DQ'd from the military and get out of deployment.

If that were the case, he'd of just gotten injured or gone to a psychologist and gotten a note to get out of it.

knbber2: Hero my ass, he's a farking traitor. What, you voluntarily join the military and you refuse to go where you're told? Pussy.

While I don't agree with his actions, he's got a very good argument.

How about "Because the president of the United States lied to the American people to go to war with Iraq, he has no exit strategy to get out, and we're losing the lives of young Americans every day for his idiot mistakes and he's too much of a pussy to get us out of there?"

No one knows why we're in Iraq, no one knows how we're going to get out.

C'mon Bush. Man up. Say "I was wrong. I farked up. A lot of people died, and I'm sorry. There were no WMDs, no ties to al Qaeda, and thus no reason for US intervention. I am therefore going to pull out of Iraq."

But no, not this administration. "I'm still right, because..." (well, I don't know why they still think they're right, but they do)

However, the reason I disagree with his actions because in the military, you serve the guys under you and the guys next to you. He should deploy to Iraq to aid his own soldiers, to inspire their morale, and to do everything he can to save their lives regardless that this war is bunk.

Boojum2k: The Constitution of the United States, that he is sworn to support and defend, says clearly that Congress declares and the President commands in wartime.

The Constitution is more than just a set of rules, a list of laws.

Still, again, he will certainly be punished for violating that part of it, and he knows it. As I tried to say earlier, and as Weaver95 put better, he knows what consequences he faces, and is willing to accept them as part of the cost of being essentially a conscientious objector.

(As an aside, I'd draw a connection between this instance and the pharmacists who get fired for refusing to dispense birth control to women with valid prescriptions. But even though both feel they're following a higher moral calling, and both feel they've done nothing unethical, the pharmacists in question have actually complained about having to face the consequences of their actions. But why? Don't both subjects feel that the negative consequences of obeying "immoral" imperatives outweigh the negative consequences of disobeying them? In other words, if Watada is found guilty but ends up eluding custody rather than serving the sentence imposed on him, I'll certainly think much less of him.)

The man has recognized that the Iraq War, despite the 2002 sales pitch, has directly and indirectly made America less safe, has endangered more American lives, has all but eliminated our focus, efforts, and dollars from the true terrorist activities that struck us and continue to threaten us. I don't care if I took a blood oath to follow a law or a man--if I find out I'm contributing to that, you'd better believe I'd remove myself from that. Some actions are worth a broken promise.

And as for jail time, if I remember from the interview (which I probably don't), i think each charge has a max 2 year sentence, which is 8 years total. And I doubt quite honestly that he'd get all of that, partially because of the difficulty in proving the charges they levied, and partially because I'm sure they don't want the publicity.

You don't know the military - I think they'll come down on this guy as hard as they can. Civilian opinion be damned - they *really* don't like this sort of thing.

Weaver95: look for this guy to get hit with the hardest penality they can arrange. They're going to make an example out of him - obey orders or else.

They'd love to make an example out of him, but I think they're mindful of not making a martyr out of him. The government wants as little attention drawn to this as possible, because every conversation about this court-martial encompasses a conversation about the morality of this war. And the government knows this isn't an argument they're winning right now.

They'd love to make an example out of him, but I think they're mindful of not making a martyr out of him.

Unless someone in the white house specifically tells them otherwise, I think that's EXACTLY what the pentagon will do to this guy.

It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't lived under the UCMJ. military life (and military justice) doesn't have a civilian analogue. The brass are almost completely isolated from anything the civilians might have to say on on this issue (and in some respects it might actually help their career prospects to have the press hate you). They'll slam this guy hard, lock him up and not let him talk to anyone. They won't tolerate dissent in the ranks, not when they've got troops in the field.

That being said, this officer knows what he's up against. He knows he's not going to get a fair trial. He knows that his career is over and that he's probably going to go to jail for a long long time. But he's willing to take a stand for his beliefs.....and that's what's got the pentagon brass REALLY worried.

Weaver95: You don't know the military - I think they'll come down on this guy as hard as they can. Civilian opinion be damned - they *really* don't like this sort of thing.

you're right, i don't know the military, but you might want to check out the interview i linked, it explains it a bit better than i can.

I expect you're right, Weaver (and I'll defer to your experience with military life, having little direct experience there myself), but I also wouldn't be surprised if the White House had a finger or two in this pot. This is an administration that is very concerned with popular opinion, declarations to the contrary aside, and they know that this case does them no good no matter which way it falls.

you're right, i don't know the military, but you might want to check out the interview i linked, it explains it a bit better than i can.

I can't look at that site while i'm here at work, but I'll check it out later.

I can only base my opinon (and it's JUST my opinion, i'm not a legal expert) on what I've seen for myself. And in my experience 'military justice' is lopsided, full of double standards and something you want to avoid being subjected to at all costs.

heap: eh, i'll give him credit for standing up and facing the music.

yah, yah...you sign on the line, libby-libby-lib-u-ral yackity-smack. whatever.

takes more balls to say 'screw you, i aint going' than to just desert. i'll at least give him credit for that.

It takes balls for a guy to get into a enclosed pen with a rabid panther, but its not the smartest thing to do.

You people are avoiding the REAL issue.

Mooninites.

It's not his job to set foreign policy. I say throw him in prison.

He signed up in 2003; does anyone know what month?

It takes balls for a guy to get into a enclosed pen with a rabid panther, but its not the smartest thing to do.

In this case tho, Lieutenant Watada is in good company. This is exactly the sort of thing Ghandi used against the British. He didn't back down against what he saw as a moral injustice...and it certainly looks like Watada is doing nearly the exact same thing.

I don't know if I agree entirely with his decision but I do recognize that the guy definately has the courage of his convictions.

I'd take jail and making a stand over getting my ass blown up in Iraq any day.

What, you voluntarily join the military and you refuse to go where you're told?

Someone needs to stand up and tell the gubmint they farked up.

Iraq is a toilet, and it's just been flushed.

Weaver95: And in my experience 'military justice' is lopsided, full of double standards and something you want to avoid being subjected to at all costs.

all the more reason why what this guy's doing is pretty damn courageous.

if you don't want to goto iraq don't join army. its not rocket surgery.......

I'd take jail and making a stand over getting my ass blown up in Iraq any day.

And that is EXACTLY what Bush and the Pentagon do not want to see happening in the ranks. It's a bad thing, for a lot of reasons.

Weaver95: It takes balls for a guy to get into a enclosed pen with a rabid panther, but its not the smartest thing to do.

In this case tho, Lieutenant Watada is in good company. This is exactly the sort of thing Ghandi used against the British. He didn't back down against what he saw as a moral injustice...and it certainly looks like Watada is doing nearly the exact same thing.

I don't know if I agree entirely with his decision but I do recognize that the guy definately has the courage of his convictions.

But why sign up for the first place if he didn't want to go over there? That would be like signing up for the Klan and then realizing going out with a black chick kinda stunts your advancement.

Confabulat: I'd take jail and making a stand over getting my ass blown up in Iraq any day.

the thing is, the guy has said that if they were willing, he was willing to transfer to a unit serving in Afghanistan. He's willing to serve in combat, just not in Iraq.

Hero my ass, he's a farking traitor.

Anyone saying anything like that needs to go sign up and serve. At least the soldier in question isn't a coward like all the chickenhawks in the 101st Keyboard Division.

I spent 15 months in Iraq and I'm not proud of what we did over there at all. I wish I had had this kids guts.

knbber2: Hero my ass, he's a farking traitor.

Kind of like Confederate soldiers?

Jument

Following orders can still get you tried for war crimes. Let Wikipedia be your guide.

His support site, worth reading:

http://www.thankyoult.com/

The big reason they're prosecuting him isn't because he refused to go, it's because he had the balls to stand up and say the war was wrong. They are charging him with "conduct unbecoming" for this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Y-jZdeL70

(both links pop)