Tapping the Vein

is
בית שמש
just Beit Shemesh?
or is it a generic residence?

the last paragraph is hard.

wrong thread

משטרת בית שמש גבתה הלילה עדויות מהשכנים, ממכריה של המשפחה וכן מבעלה של המנוחה ובני משפחתה. הם זומנו להמשך חקירה הבוקר בתחנת בית שמש

Last night, police of Beit Shemesh collected evidence from the neighbors and of the deceased family. They're to go to the police station in the morning to continue the investigation.

right or wrong?

crap. i fail at the internet.

I can't excuse the behavior of that woman. She's religious, she should know better

BUT

1) This is only one side of the story
2) We are only provided footage that makes her look bad, we have no idea what actually happened. If you and me are insulting each others and I videotape it, but only show to people the parts where you will insult me, it will not depict reality, simply propaganda
3) We have no idea what happened before or after that (I mean, months)

Tatsuma
This video isnt about the woman, its the second one, about the kids throwing rocks, and palestinian kid trying to get home.

The one you're talking about is here

On tape: Palestinians harassed in Hebron 'cage'

My points earlier still stand. And kids can be real jackasses.

ok, later

Tatsuma
Almost forgot, I found something that you might like.

Link
Link
Link
Link

Wow, Rambi is pretty awesome, cheers for that

Lard_Baron

Lack of modern weaponry does not make a group dedicated to the establishment of an Islamic Theocracy in all of Israel righteous. I'm not defending the settlers, but pictures of modern weaponry does not constitute an argument of any kind. I recall we were discussing this in a prior thread, and about how the Interehamwe in Rwanda were only armed with Machettes and rifles yet they were not "righteous" because their goal was the destruction of Tutsi's in Rwanda.

Seriously, pictures of tanks is no argument at all. You can do better then that.

Oh, once again he posted pictures of tanks versus palestinians with rifles?

Description of Appeal to Emotion

An Appeal to Emotion is a fallacy with the following structure:

1. Favorable emotions are associated with X.
2. Therefore, X is true.

This fallacy is committed when someone manipulates peoples' emotions in order to get them to accept a claim as being true. More formally, this sort of "reasoning" involves the substitution of various means of producing strong emotions in place of evidence for a claim. If the favorable emotions associated with X influence the person to accept X as true because they "feel good about X," then he has fallen prey to the fallacy.

This sort of "reasoning" is very common in politics and it serves as the basis for a large portion of modern advertising. Most political speeches are aimed at generating feelings in people so that these feelings will get them to vote or act a certain way. in the case of advertising, the commercials are aimed at evoking emotions that will influence people to buy certain products. In most cases, such speeches and commercials are notoriously free of real evidence.

This sort of "reasoning" is quite evidently fallacious. It is fallacious because using various tactics to incite emotions in people does not serve as evidence for a claim. For example, if a person were able to inspire in a person an incredible hatred of the claim that 1+1 = 2 and then inspired the person to love the claim that 1+1 = 3, it would hardly follow that the claim that 1+1 = 3 would be adequately supported.

It should be noted that in many cases it is not particularly obvious that the person committing the fallacy is attempting to support a claim. In many cases, the user of the fallacy will appear to be attempting to move people to take an action, such as buying a product or fighting in a war. However, it is possible to determine what sort of claim the person is actually attempting to support. In such cases one needs to ask "what sort of claim is this person attempting to get people to accept and act on?" Determining this claim (or claims) might take some work. However, in many cases it will be quite evident. For example, if a political leader is attempting to convince her followers to participate in certain acts of violence by the use of a hate speech, then her claim would be "you should participate in these acts of violence." In this case, the "evidence" would be the hatred evoked in the followers. This hatred would serve to make them favorable inclined towards the claim that they should engage in the acts of violence. As another example, a beer commercial might show happy, scantily clad men and women prancing about a beach, guzzling beer. In this case the claim would be "you should buy this beer." The "evidence" would be the excitement evoked by seeing the beautiful people guzzling the beer.

This fallacy is actually an extremely effective persuasive device. As many people have argued, peoples' emotions often carry much more force than their reason. Logical argumentation is often difficult and time consuming and it rarely has the power to spurn people to action. It is the power of this fallacy that explains its great popularity and wide usage. However, it is still a fallacy.

Lord_Baron,

Second to BP's post.
Actually, I'd go even further,
the factoid that Israel has the weapons, tech, and ability to "kill all the Arabs" and DOESN'T stands in sharp contrast to the Arab countries that are only kept from their "kill all the JOOOOS" goals by inability.

that was stunning and important footage and it completely changed my world-view...

/not rly

Cliche clash. Sharif don't like it. Rocks and cage bars.

Woohoo, possible flamewar!


*gets popcorn*

Those kids are brainwashed fanatics, shame on their parents. Why anyone would willingly choose to live there is beyond me.

Lard_Baron: The ones with no army, Navy, Air force but home make rockets and AK47s? they are a aggressors.

Sorry, but aggression makes one an aggressor. A caveman trying to punch a hole in a B-2 stealth bomber is still the aggressor, even if he's a moron for trying.

Back in the early 90s, I used to hear people constantly raving about the Jewish Lobby

Well, back then, they called it "ZOG"

Lard_Baron

First of all, i am a full supporter of removing the settlers by force and establishing a Palestinian state. Israel and the Palestinian factions both have terrible human rights records. I'm familiar with all of this. This is called ethnic conflict and it's a travesty.

You continually ignore the subtle points of this complex conflict. You've repeatedly told me this conflict is clear and simple and i must say i believe thats a rather foolish and naive look at the conflict. The fact is there are fundamental religious, social and historical factors that play into conflict.

Now, the idea that I am giving Israel a free pass because i tell you that photographs of an army is not a valid argument shows how weak you're statements really are. Instead of making good arguments about Israeli misconduct in the territories you opt to instead show pictures of airplanes and then expect me too take that as a decent argument?

I know the settlers are in the wrong and I want them removed. I want 2 states for 2 people because i'm convinced that due to the ethnic history of that region pluralism is not yet realistic.

In order for this fundamentalist militias must be reigned in. They have to be under somebody's control. Since they openly declare that the problem is Israels Jewish population stopping the occupation becomes very difficult since they will continue hostilities so long as Israel exists.

Israel is Dar al-harb even without the occupation.

"Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. "Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.""

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

and this is what Dar al-harb is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4

see what i did there? I presented evidence that is grounded in reality. Every nation around the world has modern weaponry - therefore you're argument is ridiculous.

Seriously you can do better then that. Stop glazing over the subtelties of this conflict and try - just try to cheange you're bakc and white view.

nothing is ever black and white.

Hi Tatsuma,

I am way out of my league talking middle east politics. Perhaps you can explain something to me. The soldier with whom the palestinian woman was speaking, was he being a prick not helping the woman's brother or was he not allowed to.

Honestly curious.

$3 bil a year. I want my money back.
Good to see, though. Luckily, more Americans are waking up to the fact that we have no friends in that part of the world, and this kind of thing helps - I hope it gets wide exposure. We need to sever all ties to Israel (other than the normal trade and diplomatic ties we have with all nations). They are NOT our friends, and can take care of themselves anyway. Why should we be giving foreign aid to a country with a higher per capita income and net worth than our own? The whole idea of taking American taxpayer's money and handing it out to foreign countries sucks - but if it's someplace with little hollow eyed kids with nothing to eat, I can live with it. But giving money to a wealthy, powerful modern nation? And getting nothing but grief, treachery, and the hatred of 25% of the world's population for it? Not my idea of a bargain.
As far as how they work it out, don't matter to me - I just don't want any more blood on America's hands than we've already got.

Lord_Baron:True, If some 250lb gorilla kicks your ass and takes over your home, then when you swing at it claims "Lookit, he puny tossers attacking me, I'm only defending myself".

Is Israel the side that calls for the other side's destruction at morning prayers and employs suicide bombers?

And since when did Israel invade the area anyway? Jews were there as an independent state before there was Islam.

Oh, and BTW, the Sheikhs say the same thing about Spain as they do Israel. Do you think they have a legal right to Spain too?

Tatsuma

Oh, once again he posted pictures of tanks versus palestinians with rifles?

Description of Appeal to Emotion

An Appeal to Emotion is a fallacy with the following structure:

1. Favorable emotions are associated with X.
2. Therefore, X is true.


Jewbie,please.

Your like summon the Holocaust card on petty events like being taxed 0.10% for service fee at bank tellers in Germany post war.

What an unpleasant video. Pretty crummy 'keeping the peace' by the troops.

I didn't see any sign of the boy (later called 'brother') being beaten up.

Then again, those wee shiats should have been brought under control.

What a miserable little shiatpit you folk all want to live in.

benmecha Jews were there as an independent state before there was Islam

Oh, purlease, like that matters. Or do we want to go through the Jericho genocide again?

Jews were there as an independent state before there was Islam.

Sorry, but you 'lack the knack'and basis countering your statement. Moses, preached monotheism just like Mohammad did and is considered a Prophet of Islam. Jews are considered heretics who chose not to follow the next prophet of Islam: Jesus, who was sent to guide the heretics and the nation of Israel.

It get very interesting if you are into reading about it but who the fark cares considering the other side's sentiments into these discussions anyways.

Lard_Baron: ......And this is where you leave reality. Palestinians have no modern weaponary, their existance is entirely within the gift of Israel, and yet, you and others continually make out Israel to be the victims and Palestine the agressors.

Of course, arabs came to the conclusion that an army vs. army conflict with Israel is not a good idea. Took them a few wars to grasp the issue but now they moved on to a much better strategy: their palestinians pawns. Who do you think pays for their weapons ? trains them ? where do you think their leaders sit ?

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism." --- PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein, March 31, 1977.

Arafat himself repeated the same sentiment.

You completely ignore the fact that the palestinians themselves, the ones you are defending here, openly and quite clearly claim that their goal is Israel, not Gaza (which is now theirs, and they are currently busy slaughtering each other over there) and not the West Bank.

The solution is simple. You know it is, your sublties are bullshiat. Irsael needs to give back the West Bank in return for Peace and recognition.

Again: the people you defend openly contradict you here, quite cleary. Go take a look at Fatah's own symbol, notice the shape of the land behind the guns ? i hope i don't need to repeat myself about Hamas, you for some reason refuse to recognize that we are dealing here with a fundamentalist terrorist organization with an open genocidal agenda, they openly claim that their goal is Israel, not the West bank.

Recognition ? they did some recognition today when they fired two rockets on Sderot so i assume they know that Israel exists. Go read the Hamas' and Fatah charter before making such idiotic claims.

Israel wants to keep the West Bank and is willing to pay the cost in blood to do it.

Israel's current ruling party was elected on the promise of a pullout from the West Bank. The majority of Israelis (myself among them) are in favor of getting out from the West Bank, facts which you naturally ignore.

Your argument is that of a simpleton who doesn't understand the complexity of the situation ('give them the West Bank! peace will follow!'), you make comments about actions you don't understand (Israel doesn't bulldoze palestinian homes for sport) and quite frankly you are a waste of my time.

The Jewish lobby:

Lard_Baron: Now we both know the truth of this,
Why destroy your credibility on a cheap lie?
Why do I always have to correct you?
And why when I do will you act surprised?

Kadima wins elections based on a pullout promise from the West Bank.

Yes Israel intends to keep some settlements in exchange for giving the palestinians land within the green line. It's called compromise, the palestinians should learn to grasp the concept by now.

Lard_Baron: No, negotiate, and peace will follow.

With whom exactly ? Fatah ? Hamas ? the ones who say 'give us everything we want and we'll think about not blowing up your civilians for a few years' ?

You want some thing you have to negotiate for it.

According to the palestinians you must wage Jihad. Maybe you should go to Rammalah and preach to them.

Today the IRA have given up weapons and agreed to work..

Are you comparing them with Hamas ? are you that stupid ?

Lard Baron. If Israel wanted the west Bank and Gaza, why didn't they annex them? They annexed East Jerusalem and and the Golan. Israel would have done it already.
The territories are negotiating pieces. Israel has settlers on there because A) some people did legitametly buy land in the west bank and was taken over by Jordan, and B) to pressure the powers that be to negotiate. Jordan and Egypt have negotiated. Syria, and if you believe Hezbuallah Lebanon too, has yet to settle their affairs with Israel, which is why the Golan is in Israeli hands. Palestinians are relatively new on the negotiation table.
Israel wants peace with its neighbors, and is willing to give a lot.

I'm highly dissapointed. The headline promised me red-necked Israeli.

There were no beer drinkers, NASCAR cap wearin fools. The men weren't wearin' wrangler jeans with a tobbaco stained wife beater shirt. The women weren't wearn' lepord print hot pants with tube top and big hair.

And not one coon dog to be seen! Were's my trailers?

I just got a bunch of freekin' misbehaving kids who's parents have failed at raising their children.

Lard_Baron: But somehow...it just never happens and more settlers move onto the West Bank.
How does that happen? Some administrative mistake?

As i said, Israel is planning to keep some settlements in strategic points in exchange for land within Israel.

So why did you lie?
Why imply a full pullout, why not say limited pull out?
Why not tell the truth?

If i was lying, why did i post this link and openly claimed that Israel is planning to keep a small amount of settlements ?

Why do you keep sticking your head in the ground regarding everything i wrote in my original post ?

How can Palestine compromise if Kadima wont even talk to them?

With Hamas ? that's a good idea. The ones who refuse to recognize Israel even exists.

They might be more thamn willing,

They openly claim that they do not and they want Israel, not the West bank. You should seriously consider listening to them.

Hamas has offered a truce correct?

Yeah, give us everything and we'll not kill your people for a few years, after that: Allah knows.

Hamas are currently busy breaking Truce #26 with Fatah, as we speak.

But no Israel cannot talk, Israel will impose, and so it will go on.

Instead of posting more bullshiat why don't you go do some reading about Hamas. You seem to be ignoring what i'm posting about them.

Lard_Baron: You cannot see How HAMAS mimic the IRA's "Bullet and ballot box" strategy? Are you that ignorant?

Hamas are an islamic fundamentalist terrorist organization, they don't want recognition and independence, their founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist State and to raising "the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." And yes it means Israel if you are not following.

You should do some research before you post. I haven't touched the 'Islamic Brotherhood' angle, why don't you discover it by yourself.

Are you that anxious that Israels handling of situation not be compared to how the UK handled the IRA?

No, i'm simply saying that your comparison is laughable. What they want is the destruction of Israel. It's not like they're hiding it.

Lard_Baron, whilst there are possible parallels in how to draw peace from asymetric warfare, you also have to remember that the IRA (and indeed, the Eire constitution) did not demand the end of the United Kingdom: just the six counties.

The Downing Street Declaration included the very important point that "The United Kingdom has no selfish interest in Northern Ireland".

This is rather different to the situation on the West Bank, and indeed the Palestinian's belief in their state. There is also no state actor comparable to the Eire government.

Not apples and oranges; more oranges and lemons.


/and might I add a big fark off to the US's citizenry for funding the IRA.

Lard_Baron: And yet, after writing this you recognised that HAMAS are willing to cease fire with Israel. Why not negoitiate?


Hahaha. Hamas won't even cease fire with Fatah.

Lard_Baron: Because you hoped I would not know it was a limited pullout?
You told the lie. You tell me.

We had this conversation 3 times or so before, i am quite aware that we discussed the same thing before, that's why i consider you a waste of time. But i must say that you are entertaining. Keep blaming me for lying if it makes you feel better. it's bullshiat and you know it but if it comforts you, i don't mind.

And yet, after writing this you recognised that HAMAS are willing to cease fire with Israel. Why not negoitiate?

Because their "truce" is laughable, like your posts. Have you read their offer ?

Because you dont want to.
Israel will impose its rule on Palestine. It will give what it thinks fit to give,
There will be no peace.

Why are you ignoring who currently controls the palestinians ? as long as the palestinians elect genocidal terrorists to lead them there would be no peace.

I hope we've all learnt something here.

Nothing we didn't discussed before, besides the fact that you have a lot of reading to do.

Lard_Baron: Why not negoitiate?

Well, historically, the Palestinians have always bragged about their ability to negotiate in bad faith. E.g:

http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1046

At least Hamas, unlike Arafat, isn't pretending it does not want Israel destroyed.

Lard_baron

Ever read the Hamas Charter? Do you know what that organizations goals are? Do you realize that it's got nothing to do with the occupation. Do you realize that HAmas will work to further its goals regardless of what deals are made with any other Palestinian faction?

Comparisons with the IRA are dishonest, since the IRA's goals where never the destruction of the UK.

Honestly, you can form a better argument then "they've got guns". Thats ridiculous.

Lard_Baron: What is your point?


Hamas: we want to destroy Israel

IRA: we do not want to destroy the UK.

OK, there's the point.

TappingTheVein
I've been thinking about the "push Jews into the Sea" talk from the Arabs for a little bit now. This threat is a large argumentative lynchpin for these discussions, and I'm going to run through a short critical analysis here. What do you think?
(see Palestine Question for many of these citations)

Most can agree there have been calls for Arab control over all of Palestine or concerns with being controlled, even way back in the 1915-1916 when Arabs were making agreements with McMahon to Great Britain is prepared to recognize and support the independence of the Arabs in all the regions within the limits demanded by the Sherif of Mecca". and So far as Palestine is concerned, we are determined that no people shall be subject to another" Of course, these efforts by the Arabs to call for a Arab state quoting the agreements with McMahon were rejected by the 1939 White Paper.

Now, The pre 1947 Palestinian desires for nationhood site agreements with the British on creating this state, without the Zionist state. Conversely, the Jewish side was hoping for more immigration and safe harbor from anti-semitism as well as their own notions of Nation State. These two concepts of nationstate were mutually contradictory. Back to the Palestinians, extremist elements in the Palestinian side wanted all the land back, and these voices were in control. They wanted a nation-state of the whole area and there was tremendous resentment to the dramatic increase in Jewish immigration into the area, especially after the persecution of Jews in Europe.

The Palestine problem became an international issue towards the end of the First World War with the disintegration of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Palestine was among the several former Ottoman Arab territories which were placed under the administration of Great Britain under the Mandates System adopted by the League of Nations pursuant to the League's Covenant (Article 22) .

All but one of these Mandated Territories became fully independent States, as anticipated. The exception was Palestine where, instead of being limited to "the rendering of administrative assistance and advice" the Mandate had as a primary objective the implementation of the "Balfour Declaration" issued by the British Government in 1917, expressing support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people".

During the years of the Palestine Mandate, from 1922 to 1947, large-scale Jewish immigration from abroad, mainly from Eastern Europe took place, the numbers swelling in the 1930s with the notorious Nazi persecution of Jewish populations. Palestinian demands for independence and resistance to Jewish immigration led to a rebellion in 1937, followed by continuing terrorism and violence from both sides during and immediately after World War II. Great Britain tried to implement various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. In 1947, Great Britain in frustration turned the problem over to the United Nations.

The Origins and Evolution
of the Palestine Problem:
Part I 1917-1947"
Larger Menu - 1917-1990

You can see this enmity from Jewish expansion expansion today in, well, videos like this. American's aren't too familiar with this narrative. Of course, this is not to say that there hasn't been terrorism, because there has.

The themes of Expansion, conflict, and terrorism all over seem very rooted into the past

Also, in relation to your post I'm interested is in the Arab street and what they want outside of party rhetoric. Do Arabs have a lurking desire to push Jews into the sea?

This Poll shows 52.4 per cent of Palestinians prefer a two-state solution, 23.6 per cent of respondents would establish a bi-national state on all of Palestine where Palestinians and Israelis enjoy equal representation and rights.

Only 7.4% want one Palestine state and 2.9% want an Islamic state.

Ok. What if thats just bullshiat? This article shows that the fighting in the West Bank are struggle over Palestinian identity - between Fatah striving for a national secular identity, and Hamas seeking to establish an Islamic Palestinian identity. This is a war between the values of the West and Islam.

Ok, if this is true, then, maybe this brand new poll showing that 40.2 per cent of respondents would vote for Fatah and Hamas is second with 23 per cent. is a good sign. Thats more for Fatah. Less for Hamas.

The Palestinian people lack the ability to "push Jews into the sea" but do they really want to? This is the question Ive been asking myself.

Lard_Baron:Mrs T's tough stance got nowhere.

Er... um... the Anglo-Irish agreement? And the fact that contacts were made throughout the period? I've even heard it said that the IRA were being militarily defeated during the period.

Look into the history of that conflict a little more. A good (Republican) perspective can be found in "A Secret History of the IRA", by Ed Moloney. It's very readable.

The "Armalite & Ballot Box" strategy was adopted in 1981; 1984, Adams (through intermediaries) suggests IRA ceasefire possible. 1986, likely date of opening of contact with Tom King, NI Minister.

Mrs Thatcher was Prime Minister between 1979 and 1991. Her line appears to have been successful.

/tho' I hate the biatch.

I have to cook, be back in 1 hour. In the meantime, heres a quick google news scroll down of some other news articles on this (Israeli Papers only). no time to fix links broken..



IDF nixes Peace Now Hebron protest (Video related protest)

Stop the Jewish barbarians in Hebron
Peace Now activists protest Hebron settlers

Olmert on settler violence: I am ashamed

B'Tselem: Don't make one Hebron settler into the scapegoat

Gov't sets up panel after Hebron feud

Police official: Hebron incident reflects reality

Settler violence in Hebron continues

Sneh: Law not enforced with regard to Hebron settlers

Considering what the Palestinians have been doing media-wise, I wouldn't be surprised if this video was faked.

In an opinion column, the head of Yad Vashem compared the behaviour of the settlers in Hebron to people in the Balkans harassing Jews in the late 1930s, which he experienced as a child. No linky, too lazy to hunt down right now, but it's worth noting that I always encounter a wider range of acceptable debate about the occupation, its causes, and its effects from Israeli sources than I ever do in North American sources.

Israeli settlers are just as much terrorists as the muslim terrorists. Land theives and so on.

Your american tax dollars at work. LOTS of them.....

simpsonfan: Israeli settlers are just as much terrorists as the muslim terrorists. Land theives and so on.

So taking land == targeting random civilians for death?

Gotcha.

I'm no rabid Israel supporter, but it's pretty clear to me that they're on a higher moral ground (that's not to say high moral ground, mind you) than groups like Hamas.

Man, that sucks, was hoping Tapping was still here.

Nice chatting with you earlier.