None of this would have happened, though, if it wasn't for guys like the Bishop of Norwich deciding that the promise a noblewoman made to a commoner was as valid as any other

An overlooked pioneer.
Thanks for the history lesson Mofo

I know of a few arranged marriages. Mostly within the Greek culture. In highschool a friend of mine had to leave when she was 15 to go to Greece to meet her future husband. My exboss (also Greek) is very happily married with the man her parents arranged for her. She has kept that tradition and has arranged the marriage of her two daughters as well (both of them also very happy with their marriages).

Culture is the key here.

That's interesting.

According to church law, consent was what made a marriage, and a promise to marry was as binding as the ceremony itself.

I try to imagine applying that to modern America. A few states still have common law marriage, where you are married if you say you are. But what if she could tell her friends "we're kind of engaged" and if you didn't dispute it *poof* you were married. Forever.

Whoever did the pull-quotes is a demented genius:

For the barbarians, arranging three-ways was never a problem.

Laws limited your options for finding a date for the Saturday night heretic-burning.

It's why adultery became the French national pastime.

A friend of mine in college was arranged to be married after she finished school. She spent that final year banging just about everything that moved.

because women aren't shallow enough to be bought off with money or.... oh wait

Because it's an antiquated and asinine idea?

I'm from Norwich, and Paston is still a pretty important local name and place. Makes you think. Well, me anyway.

There is one positive aspect of arranged marriages: it bypasses the whole subconscious-attraction-based-on-childhood-trauma thing. It sort of acts as a normalization factor.

"Because it's an antiquated and asinine idea?"

War, Prostitution, Electoral college...

Arranged marriages, instead of having "love" (or, more likely, temporary lust) as the sole motivation for getting hitched, have the added weight and responsibility of family honor--on both sides. It would be a disgrace not to tough it out because it would mean that your whole family screwed-up in choosing your mate (instead of just you).

Once you take out selfishness from the equation, you've automatically got a more stable marriage.

Then, after a while, the initial investment you've made becomes the actual strength of the marriage--just like for the 50% of non-arranged marriages that don't end up in divorce after the "love" is gone.

Fanny Babbs: War, Prostitution, Electoral college...

touch

Touche even. Stupid fark not allowing accents.

FarkinFarker: Because it's an antiquated and asinine idea?

Marriage in general?

Next week: What happened to that 'slavery' thing?

Anyone got another link for this? I can't seem to open it.

submitter wins because i haven't heard "mofo" in years.
kudos to you mr. or ms. submitter person.

I'm a great fan of Ken's prose and talents in the written realm, though most of my exposure was through the CorporateMofo site.

Seeing he's a PhD candidate reminds me of why I came to grad school in the first place. That's one seriously well planned, executed, and revised document - whether he did it meticulously or in his head, no matter - I absolutely praise it for substance and style.

A.

/My alma mater didn't give A+, A was as high as possible
//The flipside to 'Pile it Higher and Deeper'

I think it has to do with Americans having a more self deterministic viewpoint of how they should lead their lives. They don't seem to see the viewpoint of how your parents who have been married for a long time may know what makes a good spouse. My Indian parents were "arranged", which means they were introduced to each other by my grandparents. They weren't under an obligation that they had to get married, but rather my grandparents saw that my folks were each good marriagable people for each other, and they set up the meeting. Myself being born and raised american, it's weird for me, but it does have a certain amount of sense. When both people enter into a relationship knowing the goal is marriage, you can come the the conclusion of whether this is a worthwhile relationship pretty quickly. There's no ambiguity as to whether either party is serious about the long term goals or whatnot. Of course, there is a "dating" period where the couple gets to know each other, but within a month or two, they know whether they're going to get married or not. My folks were engaged within 4 months of meeting each other, and were married within a year, and last december was their 27th anneversary. An added bonus to them for being so prompt with their marriage was that they got me and my brother off to college by the time they were 48, which I hear is a great age to not have to be saddled with kids anymore :-) Anyhow, the theory of arranged marriages isn't so bad. The stories we hear about kids being arranged at birth only happens in backwater villages. I'm sure that there are equally awful marriage stories coming out of the south if you look hard enough. There is something to be said about taking marriage advice from your parents, people who are 1) genuinely looking out for your best interests and 2) know a thing or two about being married.

The article mentions (very briefly) ultra-orthodox Jewish arranged marriages. It's true that it's only among the ultra orthodox that there are actual arranged marriages, but this isn't the whole story. There's a strong tradition of what are called "shidduch". These are basically the Jewish community's answer to the question of how young men and women are supposed to meet considering how segregated they're kept. Basically, someone who knows both parties involved (a parent, business associate, etc) sets up an arranged date, with the hope that they'll like each other and get engaged. It has an amazingly high success rate, actually. The idea is that then both families can check out the credentials of the other side before it's done.

However, it also produces some hillarious results. I had a friend who was trying to hide from his parents just how little he was keeping in line with his upbringing, including his shiksa girlfriend. So he'd periodically have to tell her that he couldn't go out that weekend because he had to go on one of these arranged dates. The stories he'd bring back about these girls were priceless too. All JAPs, totally vapid and shallow shells of human beings. He'd basically spend the evening trying to see how much he could freak them out.

...because it's primative that's why.

Nobody'sPerfekt: Then, after a while, the initial investment you've made becomes the actual strength of the marriage--just like for the 50% of non-arranged marriages that don't end up in divorce after the "love" is gone.

I would disagree and say that the marriages that do last, continually fine new ways to define their "love" and thust make their relationship seem fresh and new and thus enticing to keep.

/Thus sayeth the former swinger

Screw arranged marriages.
Bring back temple prostitutes.

I took an Indian friend to a strip club the day before his arranged marriage. He was the saddest bastard I ever saw. But the boobies helped.

Arranged marraiges were done thousands of years ago to ensure a growing populace and exchange of wealth. We have enough people now. Maybe India wouldn't have a billion people if they let people make up their own minds whether or not they want to get married young or at all.

Nobody'sPerfekt

Lust in the sexual things sure...

That feeling I get when I am with her, when I think of her, when she surprises me... nothing at all like lust.

Love is the only word to describe it, a shame you've never experienced this.

Corp Mofo rocks.

That is all.

Yeah, I'd hit it like a whack-a-mole.

It is common in India, because of the conservative soceity. Pre-marital sex is frowned upon (especially for girls). If it becomes known that some girl had sex with her boyfriend, or even that she had a boyfriend, it will become extremely difficult to marry her off (unless they hide it from the groom, which kind of defeats the purpose of marriage, and leads to divorce more often than not). therefore, girls don't put out, which means guys are horny, single and desperate (like me). the only recourse to get poonani is to get married via your parents consent. this is still true, thought the boyfriend-girlfriend thing has started catching on a bit more now (due to western and bollywood influence, financial independence at a young age due to IT out-sourcing)

the conclusion is, the IT offshoring to India is resulting in lesser arranged marriages.

...because it's primative that's why.

I agree, this country is quite primitive.

Is $10k+ in investments good for 25 year old in grad school?

/No girlfriend/wife
//Two cats
///Wakes up happy every morning

Nobody'sPerfekt:
Arranged marriages, instead of having "love" (or, more likely, temporary lust) as the sole motivation for getting hitched, have the added weight and responsibility of family honor--on both sides. It would be a disgrace not to tough it out because it would mean that your whole family screwed-up in choosing your mate (instead of just you).

Once you take out selfishness from the equation, you've automatically got a more stable marriage.

Cause guilt and shame are a great reason for living with someone you don't like.

If this is primitive then so is farking and therefore is below we few advanced Westerners.

Cultural snobbery on something as low-brow as Fark.com seems odd.

BrotherAlpha: Cause guilt and shame are a great reason for living with someone you don't like.

No, it means commitment rather than love is a more solid basis of marriage. It's cute to think that "love is all you need" and "opposites attract", but that's the primary reason that more than 50% of marriages end in divorce.

ZAZ: That's interesting.

According to church law, consent was what made a marriage, and a promise to marry was as binding as the ceremony itself.

I try to imagine applying that to modern America. A few states still have common law marriage, where you are married if you say you are. But what if she could tell her friends "we're kind of engaged" and if you didn't dispute it *poof* you were married. Forever.

I'm pretty sure that even the old bishops would say that BOTH parties have to have "promised". It's like contract law - "agreement is the essence of contract". And lack of dispute does not constitute agreement except under the most bizarre laws.

Arranged marriage sounds fuct to modern Westerners, but I can see the benefits as long as it is of the "parents introducing you to potential mates" type and not the "surprise, here's your new wife/husband" type.

Arranged marriages aren't so bad. Judging by my "dating history" I am quite sure other people probably knew what was best for me better than I did.

But we must also address the other side of the coin and have arranged divorces.

wallypod

Did you have to watch that Thomas Friedman video too?

Get drunk and knock up some chick in say Arkansas or Alabama and your marriage will be arranged by shotgun.

/Doesn't know from experience.

In my experience when arranged marriages go wrong (and they often do, whether or not you do anything about it is another question) it is the woman who was "given away" who suffers the most. Perhaps this is because this process instigates that she is property.

Nobody'sPerfekt: It would be a disgrace not to tough it out because it would mean that your whole family screwed-up in choosing your mate (instead of just you).

Yeah, because children never rebel and blame their parents for screwing up their lives.

Arranged marriages only work in societies where children aren't given any other choice but to accept it. In other words - if they don't go for the arranged marriage, they won't get married, period.

They don't work because the practice has advantages, the custom doesn't somehow strengthen the bond between two strangers who otherwise couldn't stand to be with one another, they work because society forces the couple to make a choice: Either participate in the custom and have progeny, or don't participate and grow old alone.

arranged marriages wouldn't be so creepy if they weren't planned so early in the kids' lives.

I'm sure my parents are relieved that they were not oligated to arrange a marriage for me. Trying to get me to eat liver as a kid would have been ample warning of the futility and anguish that would be in store.

/far more stubborn than a mule
//single, independent, and loving it!

because they work unlike 'love' marriage?

good ole flopp: most arranged marriages arent like when the kids are born and parents set them up to be married.. that maybe done in rural places. arrange marriages are usually done with both the consent of the bride and groom as well as the parents. and guess what? they work...

my parents were arranged marriage, so where my aunts, my uncles, my grandparents, my cousins, etc. and no divorce in my family :)

When "honor killings" such as these take place in European countries, the perpetrators are treated like common criminals. Not so in other places in the world: In Jordan, for instance, men who claim the "honor killing" defense can receive as little as a six-month sentence and they're treated like heroes when they're released. In Pakistan, they usually get off scot-free. (I should add that such murders about 5,000 a year, according to the UN are by no means limited to the Muslim world. The "honor defense" is still common in South America, and it was only legally abolished in Italy in 1981. As a whole, though, they are far less tolerated in the West.)

One prime reason for the West to claim cultural superiority.

My boyfriend's parents have an arranged marriage. He says they're so different that they never would've chosen each other, and they're not very happy together.

Arranged marriages and dowries are a big factor in bride-burning in India too.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/3071963.stm

My parents know better than to try and arrange a marriage for me. I won't agree to it and I will do whatever it takes to get out of it. Every now and then, they still try to set me up with someone and I really hope they give up soon. I don't want to date guys who are pansies (usually someone mom picks) or jackasses/a--holes (usually someone dad picks).

/doesn't want to marry
//likes cats
///not going to be cat lady
////going to be sexy Catwoman *meow*

Many of the Indian people I know still do arranged marriages.
I don't understand it, myself, but sometimes I wish we practiced it here, I'd actually have a shot at getting laid. An Indian friend of mine has been dating a black guy for about four years now, and she still cannot tell her parents. They are considering an arranged marriage for her, I think. I have a feeling she will be moving away from her family, possibly never going back, because of this... it is a shame.

GAH THANK YOU lordargent !

I'd lost all my favorite links when I replaced a hard drive a year ago, and forgot about sinfest. Oh man, now I get to go back and read a year's worth of them. woot!

back to the topic:
I worked next to an indian that met a girl in his building. He never even said hello to her much less dated her. His mother came to visit him from overseas for a week, and her mother happened to be in town at the same time. They bumped in the elevator, the mothers made eye contact, and eventually the two kids got married.

Yes, the mothers discussed it between them, and presented the idea to these two. They said ok. Lol. Syed was over 40, and the girl was probably late 20's if not 30's.

The rest of us in the department just fell over laughing over the situation. We weren't making fun of his culture, just astonished at how easy it was for his mother to tell this 40 year old to marry the girl. He'd been living in this country for probably 20 years.