Oh boy! Can we please hurry up and socialize healthcare here too!? Pretty please!

*No wonder so many Canadians are willing to come south of the border to pay "exorbitant" American rates*

BS. the average canadian does not pay 48% tax. The top tax rate is 50% and only about 10% of the populace pays that.

this is total BS I work in a hospital. the average wait is 2 weeks for a test.

Buck Futter: Oh boy! Can we please hurry up and socialize healthcare here too!? Pretty please!

Better hope you or a family member never gets seriously sick. sport. you'll be bankrupt in no time.

sithon: the average wait is 2 weeks for a test

...and that's acceptable?

sithon
BS. the average canadian does not pay 48% tax. The top tax rate is 50% and only about 10% of the populace pays that.

Second that. The writer's bias is blatant. Watch out for articles that rely heavily on the Fraser Institute and the Taxpayers' Association (the former just heavily biased, the latter hysterical).

I dunno - any time I or my family have ever needed urgent or semi-urgent care, there has been *no* wait.

Two family members had tumors removed in the last year (unrelated, unassociated problems) and in one case surgery was 5 days after diagnosis, and in the other it was about 12 hours after diagnosis.

/not saying the system is perfect, but it's not that bad
//Hey, at least we're not 37th

Has anyone ever suggested the States exactly copy the Canadian health care program? What Americans do best is taking existing ideas and improving them ten fold. Should health care for our citizens be about what Canada is doing, or should it be about providing health care to citizens?

Canada has a great idea now lets improve it.

Part of Canada is French you know . . .

2005-03-19 11:52:17 PM sithon
this is total BS I work in a hospital. the average wait is 2 weeks for a test.
Better hope you or a family member never gets seriously sick. sport. you'll be bankrupt in no time.

Shall we talk about the practice of "hallway mediciine"? I was just reading about this, and the fact that 20% of heart attack patients who require treatment within 15 minutes are waiting over an hour for service, and that in one of the big Cancer hospitals, patients have to sign waivers absolving the hospital of it's responsibility with delaying radiation treatments.

The article also talked about a guy who went to a vet to get an MRI done because of the absurdity of the "free" system.

Loucifr
Has anyone ever suggested the States exactly copy the Canadian health care program?

Excellent point. The geography, government, and population density are all different - why not take some cues from each other and try to improve upon our systems?

I've never had to wait for any heart test operation, cat scan, any regular test.. Its extreme circumstances that get all the press... maybe people should start exercizing and stop eating Mcfatburgers so there isnt such a damn lineup of fatties with high cholesterol

Buck Futter

It's not a free system. Nobody's suggesting it is.

2005-03-19 11:55:21 PM Loucifr
Has anyone ever suggested the States exactly copy the Canadian health care program? What Americans do best is taking existing ideas and improving them ten fold. Should health care for our citizens be about what Canada is doing, or should it be about providing health care to citizens?
Canada has a great idea now lets improve it.

I agree with some sort of universal health care system....but I will be f*cking damned if I will pay a penny to these assholes who eat themselves into diabetic comas, or smoke until they have to have their voicebox removed, and their lungs replaced.

I'm just adding my voice. That article is a total biased plant. Anonymous doctor, a few quotes here and there from biased sources, and the bonus, the fix from the people who planted it.

Even sadder, Fark eats it up. Keep spreading the misinformation people until we're all dead and dying of our own sick and twisted greed.

*No wonder so many Canadians are willing to come south of the border to pay "exorbitant" American rates*

This is a myth.

See: http://cthealth.server101.com/myth_canadians'_use_of_healthcare_in_the_u_s_.ht m


These findings from U.S. data are supported by responses to a large population-based health survey, the NPHS, in Canada undertaken during our study period (1996). As noted above, 0.5 percent of respondents indicated that they had received health care in the United States in the prior year, but only 0.11 percent (20 of 18,000 respondents) said that they had gone there for the purpose of obtaining any type of health care, whether or not covered by the public plans.

Rut roh, someone peed in NMPH's Wheaties again...

Bill_Wick's_Friend I'm checking some articles now....oddly, they all seem to cite that one and only study (which is also almost 10 years old)....I can accept it probably is a myth, but it'd be nice to see other sources.

i hate this shiat.

1. canadians don't come to the US for healthcare. that's a rush limbaugh lie.
2. canadians don't wait for years for a doctor's appointment. my friend had a testicular tumor found and was operated on within 24 hours. this is a rush limbaugh lie.
3. canadians aren't taxed higher than americans because of this system. the american health system actually costs more per capita, yet doesn't cover millions of poor.

send you ayn randists to rural capitalist venezuela, let their wonderful free market system take care of ya, hm?

punkennedys: canadians aren't taxed higher than americans because of this system.

Then why are you taxed higher? Your superior military?

Buck Futter:

but I will be f*cking damned if I will pay a penny to these assholes who eat themselves into diabetic comas, or smoke until they have to have their voicebox removed, and their lungs replaced.


If you have private health care insurance, you're already doing that. Insurance companies are for-profit collectives.

2005-03-20 12:17:20 AM punkennedys
i hate this shiat.
1. canadians don't come to the US for healthcare. that's a rush limbaugh lie.
2. canadians don't wait for years for a doctor's appointment. my friend had a testicular tumor found and was operated on within 24 hours. this is a rush limbaugh lie.
3. canadians aren't taxed higher than americans because of this system. the american health system actually costs more per capita, yet doesn't cover millions of poor.
send you ayn randists to rural capitalist venezuela, let their wonderful free market system take care of ya, hm?

Does Rush Limbaugh write for the New York Times now?

"Full Hospitals Make Canadians Wait and Look South," New York Time, January 16, 2000

2005-03-20 12:19:39 AM damitjim
punkennedys: canadians aren't taxed higher than americans because of this system.
Then why are you taxed higher? Your superior military?

HAH! That one made me snicker.

ZING!

Rut roh, someone peed in NMPH's Wheaties again...

I don't like it when that happens. It makes me sad.

Buck Futter

MRI's are very, very expensive. The reason it takes so long to get one up here is because we couldn't afford to put one in every hospital the moment they became available. Private MRI clinics are starting to pop up to fill the void.

Regardless of what any non-Canadians say about our healthcare system, Canadians are very proud of it and consider it a part of our "national identity" according to recent polls.

Can't be so bad if the people who live in it seem to like it, no?

2005-03-20 12:31:45 AM costermonger
Buck Futter
MRI's are very, very expensive. The reason it takes so long to get one up here is because we couldn't afford to put one in every hospital the moment they became available. Private MRI clinics are starting to pop up to fill the void.

Will people have to pay for those private clinics, or will healthcare cover them? Because if they have to pay....guess what you've got.

Buck Futter
Will people have to pay for those private clinics, or will healthcare cover them? Because if they have to pay....guess what you've got.

Remember that Canadian doctors have private practices, but bill the government for their hours. I didn't have my bloodwork or ultrasounds at the hospital, but at a private clinic - - but I certainly didn't have to pay for them. This clinic does lots of diagnostic testing. I'm reasonably sure the MRI clinics costermonger is talking about would be the same.

How many of you even knew what an electrocardiogram was before you looked it up?

Article doesn't have any details. The person 'in need' of the test could have simply turned whatever age and it is now recommended that the person be tested. This thing could be preventative, therefore it is probably very likely that it is fine to schedule the appointment for three months later.

The most humorous part of the artcile is where right after the author finished his complaints about the Canadian system, he goes on to cite that in the World Health Organization's ranking of best health care systems, "Canada came in 30th and the United States 37th."

There has to be a decent middle ground for health care. Unfortunately, it'll get proposed by blind chance by someone in politics virulently hated by the opposing side and shot down (think Hillary Clinton or George W, Bush levels of blind hatred).
While I'm in favor of personal responsiblity, at the same time we are THE wealthiest nation in the world, by far. Surely some of our tax money can go to decrease health care costs. It doesn't have to be even through univeral insurance or care, maybe even just paying off some of the high-end equipment so that an uninsured ER visit with a single MRI or CAT scan doesn't result in a $5000-$10000 tab.

doubleagent99

No, they're not covered. That's up to insurance. Doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me, to be honest. If something's excessively expensive and the patient wants to do things faster than the current system allows, they can pay for it.

You don't hear about many people dying while they wait for something. If people were kicking it all the time faster than the health care system can treat them, there would probably be a lot of outcry.

For the record you could go to a private clinic and get an ECG for $20.

dsmo
Article doesn't have any details. The person 'in need' of the test could have simply turned whatever age and it is now recommended that the person be tested.

Excellent point. I've got doctor friends who won't perform tests on patients because they don't need them, but the patients are so convinced that they *do* need them that they go looking for a way to buy the tests instead.

Not saying it happens all the time, but I do think it's more common for Americans to go to the doctor and say "I need a prescription for Brand X drug", or "I need a scan" than it is for Canadians to do it.

/I'm a patient, I'm not a customer of the medical system

costermonger [TotalFark]



Can't be so bad if the people who live in it seem to like it, no?

Most germans liked Hitler when he was running the country too. So the Nazi's must not have been so bad eh?

Most Americans like Bush too so I guess he can't be so bad either.

/Say hello to my friend Godwin.

2005-03-20 12:40:34 AM costermonger
For the record you could go to a private clinic and get an ECG for $20.

So, you're paying into a universal healthcare system, and then STILL having to pay for services that you should be getting from the health care system. Brilliant.

Sweet jebus, thats, thats terrible

Buck Futter

Put it this way -- of all the people I've known in the 30 years I've lived in Canada (friends, parents, friends' parents, grandparents, friends' grandparents, myself, acquaintances, people I went through high school and university with, terminally ill people, people with curable cancers, people with kidney and liver and other major and long-term medical conditions) I have never known anyone who has gone to the USA for healthcare.

I realize my anecdotal info is hardly "evidence", but that's an awful lot of people.

Buck Futter
So, you're paying into a universal healthcare system, and then STILL having to pay for services that you should be getting from the health care system. Brilliant.

No, you're choosing to pay for it if you don't feel like waiting for it. Please remember that if it is urgent, you WILL get it right away.

Bill_Wick's_Friend

Add to your list all the hundreds of people I know/am related to, too!

Bill_Wick's_Friend

Met a few in New Hampshire, but that hardly shows a trend either. It happens, but less so than the critics would claim, I imagine.
But the rankings of the World Health Organization mean diddly-squat. Canada's health-care system serves its people admirably, but where does the wealthy of the world come to for care? The U.S. And not 'cause it's cheap.

/charge 'em a "health visitation" tax!

Buck Futter

You can get it for free, just not immediately. If you're worried about your health enough that you think you're going to die in 3 months you need more than just an ECG.

My pilot's license requires me to have an ECG every two years. I don't mind paying for it because I don't need to tie up taxpayer's dollars to get a test like that.

....and with regard to the NYT story "Full Hospitals Make Canadians Wait and Look South"

The NYT states that:

"When Canada's state-run health system was in its first bloom, in the 1970s, Americans regularly trooped up here on inspection tours, attracted by Canada's promise of universal 'free' health care. Today, however, few Canadians would recommend their model for export."

Yet the closest evidence Brooke could find to support this thesis was a January poll by the Pollara firm that found 74 percent of Canadians "supported the idea of user fees," which have been outlawed in Canada since 1984. But Pollara surveys have also found that Canadians would only be willing to support very small fees, averaging about $18 per health visit--a sum that is unlikely to add more than 1 percent to the annual health budget

Moreover, the poll presented user fees as the only alternative to higher taxes or less spending on other government programs. (Respondents rejected both higher taxes and lower social spending, but 64 percent favored cutting military spending to pay for health.)

(Montreal Gazette, 1/13/00).

It seems Canadians "looking south" are just looking, not actually going into the store and buying anything.

2005-03-20 12:44:12 AM Bill_Wick's_Friend
Buck Futter
Put it this way -- of all the people I've known in the 30 years I've lived in Canada (friends, parents, friends' parents, grandparents, friends' grandparents, myself, acquaintances, people I went through high school and university with, terminally ill people, people with curable cancers, people with kidney and liver and other major and long-term medical conditions) I have never known anyone who has gone to the USA for healthcare.
I realize my anecdotal info is hardly "evidence", but that's an awful lot of people.

That may very well be true....could your location have anything to do with it? Are you in Ottawa, or are you in Yellowknife?

Buck Futter:

but I will be f*cking damned if I will pay a penny to these assholes who eat themselves into diabetic comas, or smoke until they have to have their voicebox removed, and their lungs replaced.

While I agree with your sentiments there, Reactron answered that critique and took you to school.

You're losing this argument, I think. For every Canadian who has to go across the border for something, I could probably show you ten Americans who have gone dead broke or even DIED due to lack of health insurance here.

Bill_Wick's_Friend: Put it this way -- of all the people I've known in the 30 years I've lived in Canada (friends, parents, friends' parents, grandparents, friends' grandparents, myself, acquaintances, people I went through high school and university with, terminally ill people, people with curable cancers, people with kidney and liver and other major and long-term medical conditions) I have never known anyone who has gone to the USA for healthcare.
I realize my anecdotal info is hardly "evidence", but that's an awful lot of people.

Lived within 200km of the USA for my whole life of 20 years and I too can make this statement. I've never known anybody who went to the US for medical treatment.

Bill_Wick's_Friend

Aren't most of us (Canadians) in favour of user fees as a token, to help discourage overuse, rather than as an actual pay-for-service model?

I for one would like to see a statement of what my doctor visits are costing tax payers every time I go, just for the perspective.

2005-03-20 12:49:47 AM pcvzeno
You're losing this argument, I think. For every Canadian who has to go across the border for something, I could probably show you ten Americans who have gone dead broke or even DIED due to lack of health insurance here.

I'm not really arguing anything....I am pointing out that the Canadian system has its flaws, and socialized healthcare wouldn't work in this country.

I'm actually in favor of a system that would cover everyone for no-fault injuries that needed attention.

Aren't most of us (Canadians) in favour of user fees as a token, to help discourage overuse, rather than as an actual pay-for-service model?

Sounds good to me. If the only people who used the system are people who actually need help our money could go a lot further, even if the fee itself doesn't really amount to much.

Buck Futter:

I'm not really arguing anything....I am pointing out that the Canadian system has its flaws, and socialized healthcare wouldn't work in this country.

All right, I stand corrected. But I think that I would prefer the Canadian system, with all its flaws to our current "system".

I'm curious, why do you say it wouldn't work in our country?

so buck_futter's "canadians are piling across the border for our healthcare" argument was false, the article he supplied was saying the opposite, his "canada makes you pay? well guess what you have?" argument was also shown to be false, his higher taxes statement was incorrect regarding the price of healthcare, his "i won't pay for anyone else's health problem" statement was also proven wrong when shown he's doing the same... yeah, i'm pretty sure you crashed and burned, man. nice try though.

2005-03-20 12:59:51 AM pcvzeno
All right, I stand corrected. But I think that I would prefer the Canadian system, with all its flaws to our current "system".
I'm curious, why do you say it wouldn't work in our country?

Rampant abuse of it by people who don't pay in, for one thing.

Sorry, at this point in my life, I am rabidly free-market minded. If you can't afford good health care, then you get crappy service and are inconvenienced, sorry. I have to put up with a lot of minor afflictions and illnesses because it's not worth paying the $60-$100 to get them looked at. It's not like people are dying in the streets here without treatments.

pcvzeno

Canada's system wouldn't work in this country because we have a larger per-capita infrastructure to maintain, a much higher total population, a more expensive and necessarily capable military, etc etc. Too many things important to the majority of Americans that could not be cut to make such a system any less of a crushing burden than the one we have now.